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Featured How are believers "Drawn" to Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 27, 2023.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In the Old Testament, God says he draws by "hesed" translated as lovingkindness or steadfast love. Our human response to seeing or becoming aware that God has demonstrated His love for us is to be attracted to God. Jeremiah 31:3. Clearly attraction rather than compulsion is in view in this Old Testament verse.

    In the New Testament, we are drawn (attracted) by seeing or becoming aware that God demonstrated His love for us by dying for us when we were yet sinners. Romans 5:8. We love Him because He first loved us.1 John 4:19. Clearly attraction rather than compulsion is in view in these New Testament verses.

    John 6:44
    “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    Here come to Me refers contextually to coming to believe in Christ as Savior and Lord, see the next verse where "everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me."

    John 12:32
    “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.”

    Here "people" has been supplied as the group "all" (pas) refers to, but actually the idea is all those who become aware of Christ sacrificing His life for humanity will be attracted by His demonstration of love for them. Again our human response to the Father's revealed "Lamb of God" is the inward power that attracts us to Christ.
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 54:13 NASB
    “All your sons will be [fn]taught by the LORD;
    And the well-being of your sons will be great.
    _________________
    Footnote: or "disciples of the LORD."

    In the NASB, when we see Lord in all caps, LORD is used to translate a shortened form of Yahweh. To be a disciple of God indicates not only a person striving to learn the Lord's instructions, but moreover, striving to become like the Lord, or refers to our efforts to become "Christ-like."

    Thus, John 6:45 NASB
    “It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
    refers to Isaiah 54:13, and presents the idea that the person has a heart-felt desire and deep-seat commitment to trust in Christ as their savior and to follow Christ as their Lord and Master. And this inner zeal demonstrates they have been drawn by God's sacrificial love.
     
  3. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    How? by us seeing his glory and goodness. 2 Peter 1

    "His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness."
     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Lots here that I agree with absolutely. :)
    However, the fact is that men and women do not come to Christ unless they are drawn irresistibly by the Spirit (John 3:19; Romans 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14).
    It is only when the Holy Spirit opens the heart of the sinner to see the wickedness of his heart, the loveliness and perfections of Christ and the completeness of His work on the cross that he will come willingly.
     
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  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, apparently this poster is unwilling to say people are not drawn by "irresibible grace" but by our appreciation of God's glory (undefined) and goodness, such as dying for us while still sinners.
     
  6. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Your question is "Why?" My answer is "in this way, by this means."
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John 3:19 NASB
    “And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.
    This verse says people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. People are prideful and do not like to admit error. That does not suggest all people are incapable of admitting error. Thus no support for being "drawn irresistibly by the Spirit.

    Romans 3:11 NASB
    THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
    THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;
    This verse does not say there is no one who understands at any time or there is no one who seeks God out at any time.
    Such an interpretation denies the context that we are all under sin, therefore when sinning we either are avoiding God or do not realize we are going against God. And again, this verse provides absolutely no support for the fiction of being "drawn irresistible by the Spirit.

    1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB
    But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    This verse does not say a natural cannot understand any of the things of the Spirit, and contextually refers to "spiritual solid food (meat) as the things those not indwelt cannot understand. But the lost can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

    Thus three for three, verses cited to support Calvinism that provide absolutely no support.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, apparently this poster is unwilling to say people are not drawn by "irresibible grace" but by our appreciation of God's glory (undefined) and goodness, such as dying for us while still sinners.

    Why? People are drawn by their appreciation of God's lovingkindness, Jeremiah 31:3
    By what means? People are drawn by their appreciation of God's lovingkindness. Romans 5:8
     
  9. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    So the claim is that people are saved by something within themselves that other people lack.

    The people that are saved are those who appreciate God’s loving kindness by giving Christ to die on the cross.

    Those people who do not appreciate God’s display of loving kindness with the death of Christ are not saved.

    Is that an accurate presentation of the view?

    peace to you
     
  10. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Not from my perspective.
     
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Ok, what is the accurate presentation of this claim?

    Doesn't the OP claim people are drawn by the display of God’s loving kindness in the death of Christ on the cross and the folks that are saved are the ones that appreciate what God has done?

    Peace to you
     
  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Canadyjd in black, Van in blue.
    So the claim is that people are saved by something within themselves that other people lack.
    [Once again, the poster fabricates a false claim to then dismantle. More obfuscation, more running from truth.]

    The people that are saved are those who appreciate God’s loving kindness by giving Christ to die on the cross.

    [Once again the poster addresses fiction, the issue is those saved were drawn by their appreciation of God's lovingkindness.]

    Those people who do not appreciate God’s display of loving kindness with the death of Christ are not saved.

    [Not at issue so obfuscation on display, those not drawn are not saved.]

    Is that an accurate presentation of the view?

    [Of course not, as the poster presented a complete fabrication rather than address the Father draws people to Christ by revealing His lovingkindness.]

    peace to you
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone please articulate the difference and how my statement is “fiction” compared to Van’s response?

    peace to you
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Willful denial of the obvious cannot be rectified by changing the wording.

    Here again is the false claim: So the claim is that people are saved by something within themselves that other people lack.
    No one said or suggested such nonsense. People can appreciate Christ dying for them, or reject the idea wholly or in part. This has nothing to do with "something" within themselves that other people lack. We all can turn aside, and most of us can accept God's word and believe. To deny the fields are "white for harvest" is nonsense.
     
  15. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The gospel is preached….

    Group #1: People are drawn by God to Christ in appreciation of God’s demonstration of loving kindness in Christ death on the cross.

    Group #2: People are not drawn……

    What is the difference?

    peace to you
     
  16. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Wrong Van. I have told you time and time again how you have twisted Scripture on this passage (as well as dozens of others with your innovative interpretations).
    Chapter three deals with immature believers. They are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. But they are infants in Christ.
    The folks in 2:14 are not in Christ. They do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.
    The 2:14 people are not able to even be on a diet of milk because they are not in Christ. The things of Christ are foolishness to them. These people are perishing (see 1 Cor. 1:18). They have no understanding of spiritual things because only those with the Holy Spirit can understand spiritual things.
    Those babes in Christ in chapter 3 are "being saved" as 1Cor. 1:18 says.
    So there is a stark difference in the two categories.

    You are trying to force a non-biblical category on people with the Holy Spirit.

    Those who are perishing refuse to love the truth : 2 Thess. 2:10. Believers are a stench to those who are perishing : 2 Cor. 2:15,16.

    2 Cor. 4:3 : And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, i.e. those without the Holy Spirit.
     
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  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I think you will do better if you simply read the verse for what it says, rather than scratching around looking for loopholes.
    All three of the verse I quoted fit exactly with John 6:44.
     
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  18. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I am saying that the method God uses is the Gospel, wherein we meet Christ and are drawn to him. I am not denying unconditional election, Effectual calling, irresistible grace or predestination, which I believe wholeheartedly.
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another "taint so" post filled with nonsense.

    1) 1 Corinthians 3:1 - And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

    Paul says he is speaking to the infants in Christ "as to men of flesh." This obvious truth is denied by Calvinists because they falsely claim "men of flesh" (lost, unsaved and not indwelt with the Holy Spirit) cannot understand spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.

    2) Did anyone say or suggest the "natural person" was "in Christ?" Nope - so an obfuscation

    3) Lost people able to understand spiritual milk are the "biblical people" you are falsely claiming do not exist.

    4) Did anyone say or suggest those that did not receive the love of the truth would not perish? Nope - so another obfuscation.

    5) Is our gospel veiled to those whose hearts have been hardened? Yes, but not everyone is like soil #1 of Matthew 13.

    Summary, Calvinists cannot defend that draw does not mean attract by revealing God's lovingkindness, by offering over and over the bogus support for "total spiritual inability."
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    First a fallacious argument against me, then a repeat of the false claim of support for the Calvinist fiction.
     
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