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Featured How are believers "Drawn" to Christ?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jun 27, 2023.

  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Scripture certainly declares the necessity of the gospel in salvation (1 Corinthians 1). In that passage you see Paul saying to Jews, the cross is a stumbling block and to Gentiles it is foolishness. But to those that believe it is the power of God.

    Peace to you
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    1) You are denying 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly states individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

    2) You are denying God gives the lost the choice between life and death, and claiming God gives the non-choice of life to some and the non-choice of death to the rest. Pure fiction.

    3) Irresistible Grace as the means to "enable" the lost to believe in Christ is a fiction. God credits the faith of some believers as righteousness and transfers them into Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:23-25.

    4) Yes God predestines some things, but not all things, that is yet another fiction.
     
  3. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    My post was filled with Scripture, which you call nonsense. Repent Van. This forum has no place for a Scripture denier.
     
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  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yet another post ignoring the thread topic and presenting fictitious charges, the penultimate work product of the poster.

    1) Denying 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly states individuals are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

    2) Denying God gives the lost the choice between life and death, and claiming God gives the non-choice of life to some and the non-choice of death to the rest. Pure fiction.

    3) Irresistible Grace as the means to "enable" the lost to believe in Christ is a fiction. God credits the faith of some believers as righteousness and transfers them into Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 4:23-25.

    4) Yes God predestines some things, but not all things, that is yet another fiction.
     
  5. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly states believers are chosen “from the beginning” through “sanctification” (being set apart by God Holy Spirit) and faith in the truth (the means by which Christians come into a right relationship).

    So, we see the work of God the Father in salvation from the beginning (being chosen by God) to the work of God Holy Spirit (being set apart for salvation) and coming into that right relationship with God through faith in the truth (Jesus Christ and Him crucified)

    So, all praise and glory go to God as the author and finisher of our faith (right relationship with God)

    People are drawn by God Holy Spirit, convicted of their sin, and convicted of the truth of Christ and Him crucified.

    Those that are chosen respond to this wonderful work of God (a real miracle) with faith in the truth.

    Thank you Lord Jesus that you didn’t leave my salvation up to the desires of my heart, but sought me, transformed me, gave me faith, covered me with your righteousness, and placed me in the hands of God never to be lost again.

    peace to you
     
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  6. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    The gospel is preached…. According to the OP….

    Group #1: People are drawn in appreciation of God’s demonstration of loving kindness in Christ death on the cross.

    Group #2: People are not drawn…… why not?

    What is the difference?

    The only possible difference, if the OP is accurate, is there is something inside one person that causes them to appreciate God’s demonstration of loving kindness in Christ’s death on the cross and the others do not appreciate God’s loving kindness.

    The OP will respond with mockery and personal attacks because the OP has no answer to the basic question of….

    Why? Why does one appreciate God’s loving kindness and the other does not?

    peace to you
     
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  7. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    Contrary to your feeble protestations, Romans 9:15 propounds the truth :
    I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.

    And verse 18 of the same chapter declares :
    So then, God has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden.
     
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  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, the fact God decides whom to save is not in dispute, so yet more obfuscation on display.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly states believers are chosen. Lets stop and agree right there, God chooses believers, not those to be believers.
    For what purpose does God choose individuals according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13? For salvation, thus this phrase teaches the purpose of His election.
    How does God choose individuals according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13? By setting them apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.
    Why does God choose individuals for salvation? "through or on the basis of" faith in the truth! Thus a conditional election.

    To what does the phrase "from the beginning" refer? These are people being chosen according to the New Covenant in His blood, thus from the beginning of the New Covenant, when the New Covenant was inaugurated on the day Christ died.

    2 Thessalonians2:13
    But we should always give thanks to God for you, siblings, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. ​
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    LOL, why not?
    1) Did they behold Christ, high and lifted up, i.e. dying for them? If not they would have no appreciation of Christ dying for them, demonstrating God's lovingkindness.
    2) Did they appreciate His sacrifice or reject the "good news?" If they rejected it, they would not be among those drawn.

    Are all people drawn saved? Nope. See the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

    Is the Calvinist claim "something inside the person" causes (compels) them to believe valid? Nope. We make choices, based on our nature and nurture, i.e. witnesses may have tilled our soil, planted and watered, but regardless, only those drawn by the Father's lovingkindness come (are attracted) to Christ.

    If we are among those comprising the "fields white for harvest" we are open to God's good news, but not compelled to believe or disbelieve. Full stop.
     
    #30 Van, Jul 2, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2023
  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    We have been through this several times. There are two major views of the passage as articulated by different scholars.

    What seems most likely, in context, is..

    …“From the beginning” refers to being chosen for salvation. “Through” refers to the means by which God brings those chosen into a right relationship with God…. Sanctification (set apart) by God Holy Spirit and Faith in the truth.

    I understand we disagree. Hopefully, the mocking and name calling can be avoided.

    peace to you
     
  12. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Active Member

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    As I read through some of these post, this scripture came to mind.
    John 16:7-8 KJVS
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. [8] And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    Through the preached gospel, the Holy Ghost spoke to me and showed me I was lost and needed a Saviour. The wisdom of the flesh or this world couldn’t enlighten me to who I was in the eyes of God. But the preached Word let me see my poor condition.
     
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The suggestion that "from the beginning" is redundant to "for salvation" is found nowhere in the commentaries of the scholars I reviewed.

    The adverbial prepositional phrase modified (describes) the verb chosen, and thus refers to how the choice is accomplished, by setting the person apart in Christ, and the basis for the choice, God crediting the person's faith in the truth.

    Summary God chooses individuals for salvation by setting them apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
     
  14. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    That is an accurate articulation of one of the major views proposed by scholars.

    We disagree.

    peace to you
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Yes the view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that I presented is the mainstream view, held by just about everybody, but the Calvinists.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    As with so many things, the devil is in the details.
    When the gospel was preached to you, while in your lost state, unable to understand spiritual solid food, meat, were you able to understand/accept the gospel message, or did you have to be "enabled" by "irresistible grace" in order to be able to understand the offer?

    Reprove implies an often kindly intent to correct a fault.​


    According to scripture some of the "spiritual things" are to tell the lost (the world) of their sinful faults. And once again, this biblical truth is denied by Calvinists.
     
  17. Jesus Saves!

    Jesus Saves! Active Member

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    I knew I was lost and the Lord was dealing with my heart. I turned Him away several times. But, I’m glad he’s long suffering. He came by my way when I was singing with the church as service opened and His Holy Spirit began to speak to be. In my mind there was a great warfare. I was thinking the preacher hasn’t preached yet and the invitation at the end of service hasn’t been given, as I battled and was not responding to His call, it was like the drawing of the spirit got lighter and lighter. A great fear came over me, and I thought this may be my last opportunity to be saved. I laid down the songbook and my pride and headed toward the altar. As soon as I turned to Him by faith and put my trust in his redemption plan the burden of sin was rolled away and He set is abode up in my heart.
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Great testimony but you did not answer my questions.

    The verse (John 16:7-8) tells you that the lost are reproved by the spiritual things found in scripture, the inspired work product of the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Please cite the source of this statement. That it is your opinion really doesn’t mean it’s accurate.

    Peace to you
     
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  20. RipponRedeaux

    RipponRedeaux Well-Known Member

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    There is no such doctrine as "conditional election."


    Do you believe Eph. 2:5 ?
    Even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ --by grace you are saved!

    Do you believe Col. 2:13?
    And even though you were dead in your transgressions and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he nevertheless made you alive with him, having forgiven all your transgressions.


    Do you believe Col. 1:12,13?
    giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you to share in the saints inheritance in the light, He delivered us from the power of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves

    Do you believe 2 Cor. 4:6?
    For God, who said "Let light shine out of darkness, is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ.

    Do you believe the words of Scripture which states :
    He is the one who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not based on our works but on his own purpose and grace, granted to us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Tim. 1:9)
     
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