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How are we made righteous?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 27, 2018.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    This is true, but Communion is specific to His death.


    Admit it, you have never before really considered "completion" or Perfection before.

    The Blood does stand apart from the Resurrection, my friend...

    ...three days apart to be precise.


    No, it took place one dark day in Israel, and this about a third of a century after God manifested in the body He created in the womb of Mary.

    There was no man named Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation, and it is the Man Christ Jesus Who died for us.

    You can't falsely impose things that did not exist in previous Ages.


    Sorry, no. Had Abraham or Lazarus been redeemed then they would have gone to be with the Lord in Heaven. But because their transgression still held a claim over their lives, and were in need of redemption, they remained separated from God in Hades.

    Christ would liberate both of these men when He died on the Cross.


    You need to study Perfection, my friend. This will help you with some of the errors which mar your doctrine.


    A distinction between the resurrection and the Cross is not relevant to this discussion.

    Where in this...


    Hebrews 9:12-15

    King James Version (KJV)


    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    ...do you see the Writer refer to Resurrection.

    Eternal Redemption was obtained by Christ on the Cross, through the Offering of Himself in the stead of the sinner.

    Nothing else needed to occur, which is why, on the Cross, not three days later, He states...


    John 19:30
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



    And you're in luck, so am I, for I am out of time.


    God bless.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Abraham was not a believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but a believer in the revealed will of God available to him.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed to men in prior Ages. And I will just start with one passage to support that statement:


    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:




    And I will check in tomorrow for I am out of time.


    God bless.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    But when I logged on, I was confronted with huge lengthy posts, which response becomes a point of where to start and end.

    Not because I cannot respond to the multiple errors posted; rather, I have not the time, nor do I any longer posses the short term memory required to hold lengthy postings "In hand."

    So in brief, this is what is established in Scriptures as the truth:

    1) ALL believers of ALL times (economies, era's) are redeemed EXACTLY the same way. There is NO difference in Jew, Gentile, ancient or present or future, all redeemed are redeemed in the same manner. God purposes to change the heart of the individuals in whom He selects for His reasons.
    2) The OT saints resided in Abrahams bosom: that place of rest in which they were WAITING for the fulfilled promise of the resurrection and new body. Such a place was referred to by Christ in the Parable and at the crucifixion by the thief. It was also that place called "going to my fathers" in the OT.
    3) Those not chosen by God to be a saint were as the rich man in the parable who died and went to Hades. That place of torment in which there is no redemption and no rest.
    4) What was the determination between the two is summed up in one word, belief.
    5) Belief, which is also the Greek word used for faith in the Scriptures, is GIVEN to the one God has appointed to salvation by the Word and work of the Holy Spirit. At no time is human hope equal or sufficient as that endowment of God upon one who is called a believer.
    6) Such belief as brought specifically by the work of the Holy Spirit and the Word was just as much a part of the OT as the NT, for even that great prayer of David was a plea that God not take His Spirit from Him.
    7) No place in Scriptures is belief presented as some human generated attribute that is capable of being the catalyst that gets God's attention in which if and when He determines such effort is worthy credits that person as righteous. That presentation is just not Scriptural.
    8) The body resurrection was as much a part of redemption as the blood and why the Lord's table emphasis is upon both the blood and the broken body being raised incorruptible. Paul stated that without the no resurrection believers are most miserable. ​

    The fact is that Paul does not, nor is it found in any other part of Scripture, present a refutation to the above 7 points.

    The point of the OP in which the author of the OP enlarged was not Scriptural. It was confronted by Scriptures.

    The righteousness of Christ (God) is not earned, is not credited, is not one placed into, or any other such appointment as has been seen on this thread.

    The righteousness of Christ (God) is part of that which is given as one is a believer. There is no part righteousness, or almost righteousness as one might see in human effort salvation. The word righteousness (which is an accounting term) is also the word justified (a legal term) and such is part of the Sanctification.

    Sanctification (holy) is not partial, almost, earned, progressive... but one is either sanctified (holy) or not. One is either righteous/justified or not.

    I will look later for far shorter and to the point responses to specifics.

    Might I also suggest that when quoting Scripture, do not enlarge the font, but use the indention feature.

    Enlarging the font makes it so difficult for this old man to maintain the continuity of what is being presented.

    So if you quote the Scriptures try doing something like this:

    John 3:16
    "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him..."
    Makes for a much easier read.

    :)
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 4:20-25 (NASB)​


    20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.​
    1) This passage does not say our righteousness in Christ is imputed, credited, or reckoned.
    2) Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. This did not make Abraham righteous.
    3) Having our faith in Christ credited as righteousness does not make us righteous. We are made righteous when God transfers us into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration.
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    And I see the false theology continues to be spewed!
    Paradise is not Abraham's bosom. Paradise is the "third heaven" which is the abode of God.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated to the thief that today they would be in paradise today , and Jesus was in hades 3 days, so it cannot be Heaven!
     
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  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    “25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith...”

    Of course the mystery of the gospel was hidden, but the fact that their was to be a Messiah was not hidden. It was a promise, and as such was the basis of OT believers.

    What is the gospel? It is the good news.

    The OT thinking is seen in this passage from Luke 2:

    25And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. 27And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, 28then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,

    29“Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,
    According to Your word;

    30For my eyes have seen Your salvation,

    31Which You have prepared in the presence of all peoples,

    32A LIGHT OF REVELATION TO THE GENTILES,
    And the glory of Your people Israel.”


    Therefore, was the writer of Romans wrong in his statement of the mystery of the gospel hidden? Was it the gospel that as hidden, OR was it that the mystery was hidden, that is, how the gospel was going to be lived out in the living of the Christ?

    If one takes the statement in Luke a face value, then the Gospel was NOT what was hidden, but the mystery is what was hidden.

    Again, OT saints were saved exactly as all are saved. Through the shed blood.

    They waited upon the resurrection.




     
  8. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Do you not understand that Abraham’s bosom was emptied at the resurrection?

    Of course paradise is now found in the third heaven, for that is exactly were all believers who await the return reside.

    So, where were the OT believers rest prior to the crucifixion in your thinking?

    Were they in hades being in torment?
    Were they in Abraham’s bosom where those in hades could see them?
    Were they in heaven before redemption was completed at the crucifixion?
    Were they in Paradise which was placed as part of the third heaven until redemption is completed?

    Perhaps you have an alternative to offer?
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I agree.

    I wonder why the administrators put up with “the false theology (that) continues to be spewed?”
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The Gospel was the Mystery, just as Paul writes in Romans 16.

    But we can look at another one:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



    If you reject the clear statement here, we can proceed to the next Biblical statement of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.



    This is true, however, as shown in the previous posts, their Eternal Redemption was retroactive.

    In their lifetimes, they obtained a good report, and were justified, but, they were not eternally redeemed.

    That is clear:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    Let's see another statement, by Paul, that also distinguishes between the righteousness of men and the Righteousness of God:


    Romans 3:20-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;



    Now the righteousness of God without the Law is made manifest.

    Not before.


    22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:



    Righteousness through faith in Christ imputed to the behalf of those that believe on Him.


    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



    Even Abraham. He too was in need of the righteousness of God, his righteousness wasn't going to settle his sin.


    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



    Justified through what Christ did, not what Abraham did. Abraham was justified by grace through faith, and works, but, this is not to be equated to justification by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.


    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;



    It is His Righteousness declared for the sins that are past, which is identical to the statement of the Writer of Hebrews. It speaks of a retroactive dealing with the sins of the Old Testament Saint, who would have been justified based on the revelation provided to men in past Ages, which Paul makes clear is the Law, even if one had not received the Written Word or Covenant.

    And that remission of sins is, again, just as it is in Hebrews...

    ...based on His death in our stead.


    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



    At this time.

    At this time.

    At this time: to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God,

    The forbearance is concerning God's grace which did not immediately exact the penalty of sin.


    God bless.


    .
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Maybe its because they like you.

    ;)


    God bless.
     
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  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You're going to have to be a little more specific than that. The Gospel is the good news concerning Christ's death, burial, and Resurrection.

    And while we see it in the Old Testament, you have to keep in mind that we look at that Scripture with the enlightened mind benefiting from the New TEstament revelation we have that allow us to see the Prophecy in a context of a Risen Savior, and why He died on the Cross.

    Not so for the Old Testament Saint, which is why not one of the Disciples of Christ believed He had actually risen from the dead, as He told them He would. The reason is that their understanding was carnal, earthly, physical. They looked for a literal physical descendant of Christ who would restore the Kingdom and from thence forth have a son follow him. They were not privy to the Gospel as we are.

    Many looked for the coming of Christ, that is not the issue. The issue is that they did not understand that Christ would die for their sins. They only expected a physical redemption.

    We see that here:


    Matthew 16:20-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

    21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

    22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

    23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



    God bless.
     
  13. SheepWhisperer

    SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    Romans 4 King James Version (KJV)

    20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

    21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

    23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

    24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed,
    if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    The Gospel itself was NOT a mystery. The prophets foretold, and as I showed out of the account of Luke 2 that such was looked for by those filled with the Holy Spirit PRIOR to the church being established.

    Imo, the typical dispensational teaching of the Darby persuasion which presented that Christ saved people differently according to His revelation in the economy of periods of time was a great error.

    God redeemed from Eden to the last Amen exactly the same way. All who are redeemed are brought by the same Gospel message.

    So what then is the "mystery?"

    It is that presentation hidden from the prophets of a time of the gentiles.

    That time that is basically unrevealed (hidden a mystery) to the prophets. A time in which God would shut the ears and hearts of the Jews as a group and allow the message to be carried primarily to the Gentiles by the Gentiles. The Jews could not conceive of such a time for they were highly offended by Gentiles, so it remained a mystery until Peter's vision of the animals.

    However, what the prophets did see was that God would again open the ears and implant His word in the heart of the Jews and they would look upon the one pierced and be redeemed.

    There was no gentile church age presented in the prophets. A slight hint might be dredged up, but even that can be contended.

    So, when Paul is addressing the "mystery," it is not the Gospel that is the mystery, it is the spreading of the Gospel to the gentiles.

    In fact Paul writes of exactly what that "mystery" is in Ephesians 5, and the "mystery" is not the gospel, rather it is Christ and the CHURCH.
    32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.


    You go on to quote Hebrews 9.

    I know that you already know this, but I write for a reader that may not know.

    The writer of Hebrews is showing that what took place on earth (concerning the tabernacle/temple and sacrifices) was a picture of what was already accomplished fact in heaven.

    The crucifixion on earth was snapshots in picture form, by the sacrifices, of the reality in heaven.

    Hebrews 9 states:
    23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

    So, back to dealing with your response:

    It is the fact that the copies demonstrated the reality, the OT saints could be just as redeemed as all believers - while they were yet alive, for after death is the judgement - no second chance.

    Through the promise is redemption. Just as believers, today, have that same promise.

    Therefore, in human time constraints such took place at Calvary, but in the presence of God in which time is merely a tool that can be manipulated at His pleasure, the slain lamb was from the very foundations of this world. Hence the promise of Genesis 3:15 was not just a hope, but a reality. A reality demonstrated in picture form in the OT and given as history in the NT.



    This is not what that Scripture states.

    You are not attending to the meaning of the phrase "without the law."


    "Without the law," (BEFORE the law or as the NASB "Apart from the law") God's righteousness was revealed, and such revealing was witnessed by BOTH the law and the prophets.

    Was not God's righteousness constantly revealed for centuries prior to the appointment at Sinai? God did not wait on the Law to reveal His righteousness, it was written in the stars and still seen to this day as the constellations move across the night sky, and it was written on every heart that ever lived.




    Ok, I have taken your response and shown how some areas you presented are needing a bit of modification so they are stronger.

    Because the rest of the post went on in the same frail trail, I'll leave you with it to self correct using what I have shown is accurate.

    Now on to the next post. :)
     
    #114 agedman, Feb 3, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  15. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    That you attach conditions or further information to the word Gospel is not a problem.

    But the word Gospel simply means good news.

    There is a bit of a problem in the presentation.

    Certainly they looked for that King that would occupy the throne of David. That is what they were taught from the time they were children. But, they were not without instruction, nor were they "carnal, earthly, physical." They were without leadership. The master was not with them, and they were under the protection of that great priestly prayer until Christ would again be in their midst.

    You desire to show that some great mystery was hidden from them. Not true.

    For throughout the last year and especially the last months and weeks of the Lord's earthly life, He told them exactly what was going to take place.

    They knew the gospel. What they lacked was the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, they did not, at that point in the story, take all the prophecy concerning the suffering messiah into account, for it was not part of their prior teaching from childhood.

    They had been taught that the messiah would (as any warrior) suffer as the conquering would take place, but never die. Hence the reaction by Peter.

    Why do you think that Christ was teaching them? If they were able to self discern, then the teaching would have been necessary. But as many other aspects of their childhood instruction, there was need for improvement.

    However, DO NOT assume that the teaching was in vain. That in some way the disciples did not know about the death and were waiting for the resurrection.

    The disciples had no hope for they had no Holy Spirit in which to sustain them. That great comforter in which is part of every believer.

    Hence the difference in attitude from the time of the account you post and that of Pentecost.

    It is that same attitude displayed by all the redeemed of the OT.

    I go back to the account of that old man in Luke 2.

    For there it states that the Holy Spirit was an integral part of that person's life. Yet, Christ had yet to die!

    So, He was saved, although Christ had not yet died nor risen.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    To repeat, verse 22 does not say our righteousness in Christ was imputed, credited or reckoned.
    The "it" in verse 22 and 23 refers to our faith.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    No verse or passage says Christ's Spirit was confined to Hades for the whole time He was physically in the tomb.
    Please stop making up false theology. You should provide citations to support your unstudied views.
    On the other had,
    Paradise=third heaven
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Apparently you do not understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ.

    I will try to help you with that, and, once you do understand this Biblical Doctrine a little better, you may need to edit some of your postings.

    I have already given two passages, and I do not even see you give them any consideration, so, I will give them again and ask you to address my comments and to show why they do not show that the Gospel was a Mystery not revealed to men in Ages past:


    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    ...Where it is made clear that the Gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ by Paul...

    ...was according to the revelation of the Mystery which was kept secret since the world began.

    Why would you then go on to say it was known to men?

    This next one...


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

    2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



    ...also makes it clear that it was by revelation that the Mystery of Christ was revealed to Paul.

    It is also clear...it was not made known in other Ages to the sons of men. That is all inclusive of all men in all time prior to the revelation of the Mystery.

    It was made known by the Spirit, which when we balance God's Word, is none other than the Comforter.

    Now, tell me how it is that God's Word can teach that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men in past Ages, and by what authority you make null and void two very clear passages about the teaching of the Mystery of the Gospel.

    Then we will proceed to our next passage which shows the Gospel was not revealed to men in past Ages.

    And just so you know, I am not saying, nor is Scripture, that the Gospel is not found in the Old Testament. What I am saying, as is Scripture...

    ...is that understanding of it was not given.

    I am not going to respond to your posts unless you do me the same courtesy, so address this post.


    God bless.
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Eould be VERY interesting to read the book called "The Gospel according to van"
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It was. That is why Paul calls it a Mystery and states the Mystery was revealed to him, as shown in the previous post.

    Here is another statement making this truth inarguable:


    Colossians 1:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)


    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:



    Now, while we do see a context of Gentile Inclusion is this passage as well, we still can't deny that it was a Mystery which was hid from Ages and Generations and is now made known to His saints.

    That includes the Old Testament Saints, by the way.

    I would suggest you drop your system of theology and begin embracing what is actually taught in Scripture. I don't say that to be rude, it is just a fact. You are denying a simple teaching that you might cling to the doctrines of men.

    Again, address why you teach The Mystery was made known in Ages past, and to generations, and why you think the Mystery, "it is not the Gospel that is the mystery."

    This you say, but, if you simply look at the Word of God, you will see that is was hidden from Ages and from generations.


    Continued...
     
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