1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

How are we made righteous?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 27, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps it is YOU that need to understand that the Mystery was not the Gospel, but the Gospel being delivered to the gentile nations. There was no "mystery" hidden from the prophets concerning the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Or there would be no prophetic statement of such to be fulfilled.

    No the mystery of the Gospel was that the Gospel was to be taken primarily by the Gentiles to the Gentiles, and that the Jews as a group would be for a time inattentive.

    In what OT passage does it state that the Gentiles were to be the bearers of the Gospel and not the Jews?

    In what OT passage does it make prophetic statements of the gospel being carried and preached to every nation?

    Was not the birth foretold in the prophets?
    Was not the death foretold in the prophets?
    Was not the resurrection foretold in the prophets?
    Was not the return foretold in the prophets?
    What part of the Gospel (the good news) was not foretold by the prophets?

    There was no mystery in the Gospel message, but the mystery of the gospel was were and to whom that message was going to be delivered.

    Not a single prophetic statement that I can find addresses the issue that the gospel would be delivered to, carried by, and held in esteem by Gentiles rather then the Jews.

    Vs 26 of the above post shows support for what I am holding, and disproves your thinking.


    OK look carefully at Ephesians again, for Paul states EXACTLY what the mystery he is talking about actually is.

    Here again is the opening of Ephesians 3 with a bold part showing what the mystery actually is that Paul states:

    1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
    Again, the mystery was not the Gospel, but the mystery was to whom the Gospel was to be delivered. See verse 6?

    THAT is what was hidden from the prophets and from the apostles, until God made it very clear in that vision of Peter.

    So, as I stated before, the posts of Scriptures you have offered in your defense are actually better suited to my application then yours.
     
  2. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Believers are still filled with the Holy Ghost today, but how does that help you in your argument, lol.

    The problem for the Old Testament Saint is that they had to await the Eternal Indwelling of God.

    So your first error is not to distinguish between men being filled with the Holy Ghost, and men being eternally indwelt by God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:


    John 14:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



    The eternal indwelling is prophesied by Christ. We see that both the Spirit and the Son will come to the believer and be in them (as opposed to with them, v.17)...forever.

    Now let's see the foretelling of the eternal indwelling of the Father and Son:


    John 14:22-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

    23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



    The second mistake you make is you are not giving attention to what you are being told, by either myself...or the Word of God. I gave you two passages which show clearly that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed to any man prior to the revelation of the Mystery...and you deny it.


    Continued...
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, I have told you before, do not yell me.

    You need to learn how to use the functions that are available for emphasis.

    Secondly, I can see you are unwilling to have a discussion, because you keep reiterating the same error.

    Here is the Scriptural Basis for my view:


    Romans 16:24-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


    It says quite clearly that the Gospel preached by Paul was a Mystery that was revealed to Paul, and it was kept secret since the world began.

    We see it again here:


    Ephesians 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;



    Loose yourself from the shackles of the doctrines of men, my friend.

    Embrace Scripture.

    You can talk as much as you want but you are not going to change the fact that the Gospel was a Mystery not revealed in Ages past to anyone.

    It's not me you are arguing with, it is Scripture.


    Continued...
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Oh that you would see that what you wish to have hidden was not hidden from the Prophets. Do you remember the statement of the old man in Luke 2?

    Here you actually admit "a context of Gentile Inclusion" but then you are obliged by your own bias into that which is frail.

    Now, I won't respond to your suggestion other then turn that upon your self. It is YOU that is not following the Scriptures.

    Christ came to fulfill the law and the PROPHETS, therefore the mystery was not the gospel, but to whom (as shown by Paul's statement) the gospel was going to be delivered.

    You have not presented a single verse that states that the life, death, burial, and resurrection were not found in the prophets, that it was hidden from them.

    You HAVE presented a number of Scriptures that support what I have stated, yet you don't even recognize the truth.

    Do not consider my needing to "drop" a "system of theology" when it is clearly shown that you by the Scriptures you have supplied that you have the need to change your own.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are several mysteries revealed to us in the New Testament, but the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the premier Mystery.

    So, do you also teach that men knew about the Rapture also?

    But, rather than derail Van's thread, I will start a new thread called The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    See you there.


    God bless.
     
    #125 Darrell C, Feb 3, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,230
    Likes Received:
    1
    Colossians 1:26 (NASB)
    [that is,] the mystery which has been hidden from the [past] ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
    27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    I don’t claim Abraham understood the mystery, but merely that he believed in the gospel. This is not my argument, but rather Paul’s argument.

    Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    Paul goes on to say that Abraham believed not just any Gospel, but specifically the gospel of Jesus Christ:

    Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

    Of course, Paul is quoting from Genesis:

    Genesis 15:5-6 (KJV) 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

    Therefore, we know that - as Galatians 3:8 says - God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham and when Abraham believed it, he was made righteous.

    Romans 4 is a parallel to Galatians 3. It says:

    Romans 4:1-5 (NASB) 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

    Romans 4:9-13 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

    I hope and pray you would consider changing your position on this. This argument destroys the debate on Calvinism because it demonstrates that both sides are fundamentally flawed in the same way. They both incorrectly assume faith leads directly to righteous and salvation. This is the fundamental basis for the concept of total depravity. However, gaining this more accurate Biblical perspective completely undermines total depravity rendering it irrelevant. Our faith doesn’t directly cause us to be righteous. Our faith directly causes us to be adopted by a human being (no regeneration is necessary for human adoption, and therefore total depravity is irrelevant). When we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had, we become the adopted heirs of the righteousness given to Abraham in Genesis 15 (based on God’s promise in Genesis 17). As adopted descendants of Abraham, we then INHERIT the righteousness given to Abraham (Christ’s righteousness). Therefore, righteousness (salvation) is an indirect result of faith, not a direct result (as it was for Abraham). Both Calvin & Arminius’ positions are predicated on the assumption that righteousness is directly caused by faith.

    Galatians 3:7 (NASB) Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You hope and pray that I reject what Scripture teaches? lol

    Sorry, not going to happen. But, you are welcome to join in the discussion The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ In Baptist Theology.


    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist

    I will respond to this in the other thread.


    God bless.
     
  9. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps a longer expert from Ephesians 3 will aid your misconception.
    1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God’s grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. 11This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him. 13Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.​

    Now, I enlarged the print and bolded the facts that you might at some point come to understand what that mystery actually was that was hidden even from the authorities in the heavenly places.

    The church, the gentile church in particular, is what Paul states "specifically" as the mystery. There is no reason to assign some other appointment to the mystery when Paul writes if very "specifically."

    There was never a mention of the church found in the prophets.

    There was never a mention of a bride of Christ in the prophets.


    [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There was never a mention of the gentiles being delivered the gospel and it being carried by the Gentiles to all nations.[/FONT]

    Such was completely hidden from all authorities in heaven and earth.

    I bet you still remain unconvinced, but that is so typical of those who think some scheme of men drives my thinking.
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,559
    Likes Received:
    450
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paradise was where the saved went in Hades to stay until the Messiah came and then emptied that out and took them to heaven with Him, correct?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,004
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Incorrect, those that "had gained approval by faith" (Hebrews 11:2) were taken to "Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22) when they physically died, where they waited in comfort until Christ died. Then they were taken to heaven, paradise by Christ.

    The idea that Abraham's bosom is paradise is yet another false theology doctrine often spouted on this BB.
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,559
    Likes Received:
    450
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus and the Thief were in that part of hades, correct?
     
  13. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,230
    Likes Received:
    1
    I was blessed to read this because I think we agree on far more than we disagree on. I agree 100% with this quote.

    God gives us the basis and reasons of His selection:

    Deuteronomy 7:6
    For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
    7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
    8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
    9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

    Nehemiah 9:7
    You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
    8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

    John 6:64
    But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
    65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.

    1Peter 1:2
    [chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    Agreed.

    This is where we don’t see eye to eye. Not because I disagree per se, but rather I disagree that this statement has relevance.

    Your statement assumes that faith directly influences righteousness. However, my argument is that it does not. There is an intermediary step. Faith merely qualifies a person for adoption as a descendant of Abraham. No endowment of God is necessary for human adoption, therefore our depravity is irrelevant.

    Abraham was the only person for whom this would have been true, but God made the covenant of faith with him (Genesis 15-17) 430 years before the law was given... therefore it stands irrelevant to Abraham as well (Gal 3:17, Rom 7:8, Rom 5:13).

    I disagree. Deuteronomy 30 explicitly states that it is a choice God sets before man. Genesis 15:5-6 shows Abraham was our example, and Romans 4, Galatians 3-4, Heb 10:36-39 all indicate human faith does please God.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    26,559
    Likes Received:
    450
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is no such thing as human faith in and by itself, as saving faith is a gift from God unto us who are saved!
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well, if enough people tell you that your doctrine is the doctrine of men, it might be a good idea to reconsider what you are teaching.

    I have made some responses to your posts in The Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I will get to the rest later, I am out of time for now.


    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Agree 100%.

    "Paradise," like Abraham's Bosom, or, the bosom of Abraham, was just a term used by Jews to refer to the Just side of Sheol/Hades.

    And while Heaven is called paradise (such as in Paul's description of the man caught up to Heaven), that paradise (the Just side of Sheol/Hades) was not Heaven.


    God bless.
     
  17. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    7,558
    Likes Received:
    193
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is true, men can only be redeemed eternally through Christ's Sacrifice of Himself.

    However, when you toss in the doctrine of men, and teach the Old Testament Saints were redeemed prior to the Cross, then you depart from what Scripture actually teaches.


    On the contrary, we have an entire Old Testament that teaches the distinction between Jewish and Gentile believers.

    Have you never read that in Christ...

    ...these are now made one?


    Galatians 3:22-28
    King James Version (KJV)


    22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

    23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.



    Now, if you deny the error of your teaching which is shown to be false in this passage, I don't know what else to say.

    Paul clearly teaches a distinct difference between men under the law and those In Christ through the faith that "should afterwards (after the Law) be revealed."

    The point being is that Jew and Greek (Gentile) have always been distinct from each other from the beginning of the establishment of the Covenant of Law.


    Again, this is true, but, when they are redeemed is where you stray from a Biblical view.


    Its a very simple reason: men are separated from God, and He wants to reconcile them through Christ unto Himself. Man's heart is corrupt, and does not seek after God, though they certainly seek after the gods of false religions.


    God bless.
     
  18. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you want to argue against the doctrine that I hold as from the Scriptures, that is fine.

    But, I did not seek men, I researched no men, nor sought the advice of no men to form what I hold as truthful to the presentation of Scriptures and Scripture principle.

    Therefore, some claim that I absorbed and conformed to the "doctrine of men" is merely uninformed fluff seeking some ascendancy that cannot be found.
     
  19. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,655
    Likes Received:
    431
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then you must hold that people of the OT were redeemed differently then those following the crucifixion.

    For, if I have read your view correctly, you refute the Scripture statement "It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the judgment" and place the OT folks as abiding in some etherial place waiting to accept or reject the messiah?

    Nope. There is no foundational truth of Scriptures for such thinking.

    Decades ago, I bumped into a student who held such thinking, and frankly he was as confused as a termite in a yo-yo when it came to just how all that saving suddenly took place at the crucifixion.

    Darrell, all who were or ever will be redeemed are redeemed exactly the same way. During their living on this earth, while still alive on this earth, when the God purposes for that individual to be redeemed.




    Ok, so you think that the jews of the OT were redeemed differently than gentiles of the OT.

    And that nobody was redeemed in the OT, either Jew or Gentile.

    And I am embracing the doctrines of men?????

    :(


    You seem to be declaring what you do not seem to understand as error. Yet, with such a declaration the very Scriptures you posted refute your statements.

    First it was in the matter of "mystery" and I showed how the "mystery" in Ephesians was not the gospel, but the church, and now you would contend about the law.

    Do you not know that the law has always been the School Master? It did not become a School Master, but has always pointed to the need of the Messiah, the Redeemer, and other titles the Jews used and use.

    The rejection of the Christ as the Messiah was not a rejection that they did not believe in a messiah or the promises of redemption.

    How can that dear psalmist write of a shepherd if he had no redemption from the shepherd.

    How could Daniel seek the answer to the times, had he no understanding of the promised redeemer?

    Whose teaching is being shown again and again as false? It certainly isn't mine.




    There is another matter that this thread is about.

    "How are believers made righteous?"

    Short answer(s):

    Believers are not "made" righteous, but are righteous by virtue of that belief given to them by God. God does not make righteous and then instill belief, or take human generated hope and manipulate it into some form of righteousness.

    Belief is not human generated effort in which if and when God sees it sufficiently ascendent then credits as righteousness.

    Without the direct and purposed work of the Word and the Holy Spirit making alive that soul and endowing that measure of belief (faith) according to the purposed will of God, not a single soul is saved.

    The same condition is that of Holy. One either is or is not holy. There is NO progressive holiness. No part holiness.

    Holy is also a word called Sanctification.

    (enough)
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,004
    Likes Received:
    106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are posting nonsense. Why not read what I post and act like to comprehend simple statements of fact.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...