Interesting discussion here
especially how it relates to missions and unreached areas
How Autonomous
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Salty, Nov 16, 2022.
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Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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It has been claimed that election to an office within the church, whether minister or leader, is found nowhere in the New Testament. However if we consider Acts 14:23 and 2 Corinthians 8:19, people are selected by a stretching out of the hand, i.e. voting. Thus the autonomous authority of the congregation is indeed found in the New Testament.
And this principle is a Baptist Distinctive, so how come those advocating insurrection are posting the views of other denominations? -
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Scripture simply does not provide enough information when it comes to church government.
We know when churches were being established elders were appointed by an Apostle driven leadership. We know this leadership chose a pastor. And we know the pastor and elders were chosen from within the congregation (they did not come from another church). We know the congregation chose deacons.
But the council was outside of the congregation and led directly by the Apostles. These were not councils chosen by a denomination and were responsible for several denominations (the congregation in Corinth, for example, would be what we'd consider a different denomination from the congregations in Jerusalem as they held what we would consider denominational differences). -
Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
No doubt in new areas it’s prob a sole pastor
I’m afraid I may be more presby than most
it would seemingly cut down on heresy -
It's actually a biblical pattern, but it went off track when tradition trumped scripture.
I think the concept of succession is sound, as long as those who pass on the succession remain grounded in God's word.
Was this not the very core and essence of the Reformation? -
What I am saying is that we KNOW I an right about what is in the Bible concerning the leadership of the Apostles and the council that met in Jerusalem. That is not in question.
What I am asking is exactly how we can create such a council (which you answered, and I agree) and it be prescribed by Scripture (this is the part I was pointing out). -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Being a church history prof, I love the early church and have read a lot on the 1st three centuries, but found no evidence of a denomination until perhaps the 4th century. "Bishops" from that era were local church pastors. Along with most scholars, I put the Catholic religion in the 6th century, though local denominations might have developed in the 4th-5th centuries. -
The White Horse Inn has a good podcast titled: "Are You Called to Ministry." It's a good listen
Are You Called to Ministry? -
Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is a serious vacuum there
I blame seeker churches who changed church to consumerism instead of service -
Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Roughly- how many pastors are in Japan?
missionaries? -
Handout Church History by John Gerstner | Ligonier Ministries -
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Note how the ignorant use personal incredulity, not knowing such argumentation is fallacious.
RGT
And when they had prayed and fasted and ordained them as elders by election in every church, they commended them to the Lord in Whom they believed.
NMB
And they appointed elders by election in every congregation, and prayed and fasted, and committed them to God on whom they believed.
NOG
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.
GW
They had the disciples in each church choose spiritual leaders, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted the leaders to the Lord in whom they believed.
GNV
And when they had ordained them Elders by election in every Church, and prayed, and fasted, they commended them to the Lord in whom they believed.
EHV
They had elders elected for them in every church, and with prayer and fasting they entrusted them to the Lord, in whom they believed.
As anyone can see, this verse has been translated in several different ways:
1) Did the church establish the elders or did Paul and Barnabas pick them?
2) How was the choice made, by stretching out of hands in a vote (election) or by the edict of Paul and Barnabas?
Here is the Biblical usage:
- to vote by stretching out the hand
- to create or appoint by vote: one to have charge of some office or duty
- to elect, create, appoint
- to vote by stretching out the hand
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Marooncat79 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
For reference: The state of KY has 2,400 SBC Churches and a population of 4.5M
Japan 126M -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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