How Dare You....

In Acts 13:2 we see who sent Paul, and Barnabas. "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

We see the working of the Holy Spirit in the church at Antioch as it sends forth one, which is a prophet, and teacher of the Hebrew; then another commissioned and appointed to be an Apostle, to reveal the gospel of Christ Jesus of Heaven to both Gentile and Jew.

From this Jewish and Gentile church is when the Body of Christ, the "Body Church" took on wings. In this same chapter we see the lift-off. With "full flaps, full throttle, and gear coming up" the gospel of the Cross will begin to be explained for here we come Gentiles, for you will hear the salvation of God. After being sent Paul says three times in Acts He goes to the Gentiles. By the time we get to Acts 28, we see the gospel began to lift to 10,000 ft, then to 20, and then the 3rd utterance, perhaps 30,000 feet, level-off cutting back to cruising speed. From up here we have a much better view of the Bible, and the gospel of Paul.

 

Okay, I went back and read the whole thread, and found nothing at all about the history of missions or how your position has been widely held over the years. What am I missing?

Frankly, you have shown on none of the three threads talking about missions right now that you know the first thing about the history of missions. Quick quiz (no fair looking these up on the Internet):

1. Who were the Nestorians?
2. Who was the "apostle" (pioneer missionary) to the German tribes?
3. Where (what city) and how did the apostle Thomas die?
4. Where did David Livingstone die and who buried his heart?
5. Who was the first missionary to Burma?

Answers below.


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1. A missionary movement that sent missionaries all over the world from about the 5th to the 10th centuries. The Catholics called them heretics, but then, what's new?
2. Ulfilas
3. Madras, India, stabbed with a spear
4. He died in Africa on his knees in a mud hut, and was so beloved by the natives they buried his heart in Africa while his body went to Westminster Cathedral.
5. Adoniram Judson. He suffered unspeakably in a Burmese prison, but translated the whole Bible into Burmese and saw 1000's of the Karen tribespeople trust Christ as Savior. Strange how many people God predestinates in areas where evangelism is done.

 

Please go back and look again, ituttut, and then adjust your theology. BOTH Paul and Barnabas were called apostles in Acts 14:14. The book of Acts does not differentiate between the two as you have.

 

Please check again John. Please read again beginning in verse 1. We need to progress one step at a time. As we gain some altitude we see Barnabas becomes an Apostle under Paul.

If we will just allow ourselves we will see as we study His Word Barnabas is as Peter, and can't take the heat of those that are of the "Kingdom Church". Does Jerusalem still "stand", with the "Temple"? Half way through Acts can we determine who of works, along with its gospel, has taken over?

 

I am sorry, but can you please explain why you keep using the term Kingdom Church? I cannot find the term anywhere in any of the versions I have in my possession.

 

The Kingdom Church is to look for the Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom at Hand, and the Kingdom to Come. These were all eminent during the time Jesus was on earth and until the stoning of Steven. These were the next things on the agenda, and that "Kingdom Church" was to look and expect it to come.

The Rapture was nowhere in sight, for God had this purpose of "reconciling the world unto Himself" hid. We today are to be of the "Body Church", looking for the rapture for it is now the very next thing on God's agenda. We know two foundations are laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. These must be Churches. They look to be the Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place. In God they are, and will become one, but Israel will have their King for a thousand years, and they, Israel have been promised the earth. These things must come about. God never promised me anything, but I accept the gift He offers from heaven. In the Holy of Holy the sacrifice is slaughtered. We in Christ are where He is.

Past my bedtime.

 

Okay, I read it from vs. 1. Where is it that you say Barnabas became an apostle under Paul? In 13:1, the Holy Spirit says, "Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." So where were they treated separately by the Lord? And where does the Bible say Barnabas became an apostle under Paul?

 

Honestly, I understand the difference between Mormon theology and more mainline theology, but I am really groping for words here, because as far as proselytizing I don't see a difference. I will give baptists enough credit to say they don't usually ring my doorbell when I am in the shower! So Maybe I would have to say they were somewhat less aggressive. Other than that, what is the difference? Mormons add extra books. Some others add extra principles.

No...

I owe God a lot of apologies, and a lot more than just an apology.

I don't understand who you are talking about here. Surely not the people in your church?!?!?!? I wouldn't think so, or at least I hope not. Or do you see all the proselytism as a social program? Something like M.A.D.D. perhaps? Or Community Watch? Because I don't see it that way. Church is not supposed to be the cure for social ills generally. It is for believers to worship God.

Look, you need to lay off trying to insult Primitive Baptists and answer the real question. I don't even know what church you are a member of. I assume you are some type of baptist because you are posting in the baptist-only section. But I don't know more than that, and it doesn't matter. You are being so hostile and hateful toward people you believe to be sinners (in this case, Primitive Baptists) If this is the attitude you take toward people who you think are in sin, how hollow are your efforts at proselytism?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.​

Maybe because the Lord is going to come before then?

That is arrogant, rbell. I don't think any of us have insulted your church that way. We are just asking for scriptural justification for adding an auxilliary to the church. Now once again, please just can the vitriol. I don't think anyone is reading this anymore (I know I wouldn't be if I didn't have to!) plus I don't believe God is in this whirlwind of hatred you are spinning around in, so my answers are going to be short from now on, if I answer at all. In fact, I hope the thread is closed, since it is not going anywhere. If you answer, please remember what the issue is.

 

amity,

my posts were in response to pinoybaptist's.

• He specifically called Sunday School a "sin." Don't get offended, those were his words. Read his post. I was responding to him.
• You've just said you see no difference between Baptists and Mormons. I have not questioned YOUR salvation. You just questioned MINE and ALL OTHER Baptists on this board. You just insinuated that we're like a cult. That goes far beyond any post I've made. Talk about hostile...

I've not questioned your salvation. I've not called you a cult. I've pointed out weaknesses in your theology, and called you out for insulting my church, my ministry, my calling, and the ministry and calling of missionaries. I would strongly disagree with your "hostile and hateful" accusation.

And yes, I believe Primitive Baptists are sinners. Just as Southern Baptists, American Baptists, and all other stripes. The difference, that I've stated several times, is that by refusing to go and preach the Gospel you all are ignoring a command of Christ. Sorry that offends you. Take it up with Him...He's the one that commanded it, not me. I'm not arrogant enough to think that I've got every point of my theology correct. I'm sure I don't. But in the area of the Great Commission, I'm supremely confident I'm closer to the mark.

 

Drawing the obvious analogy in regard to proselytism is not questioning anyone's salvation.

You are sure right about PBs being sinners, and I have no prolem with you saying that. But what I want to know is why on earth did you start talking about PBs? We were talking about missionism, not your church. No one ever said anything to insult missionaries, your church, your preaching, your calling, etc.

 

Here is a question for all...

What is the purpose of the church?
This is where we are differing.

I feel the purpose of the church, as laid out in the NT, is:

To Worship God
To Fellowship, with God, and one another.

These two, we would all agree...
But what about these next ones?...

To Disciple the members
To Minister to one another
To do missions in order to evangelize the world.

I do not see any of these as auxillary programs, but I see them as main purposes within the church.

Obviously, the PBs, (and I am picking them out because they are the only ones on here that say missions is wrong, if there is another stripe of Baptist that agrees with them, let them speak up, please... they need your help) don't agree with the purpose of missions.

What about discipleship, and ministry?

 

I would agree with all your stated purposes except for the missions, although I do agree with evangelism as such. It is a question of the means used to do it. There are certainly some other people who agree with us, and it used to be more people. Baptist got along fine for centuries without missions.

And I don't blame the people on this board who I know for a fact also don't think missionism is scriptural for not speaking up. Look at the kind of shameful things that have been said. I am pretty conflicted about participating in this myself it has been made so hateful.

We all should be more thoughtful about adopting worldly means into Christ's church. Is the purpose growth for growth's own sake? Just to perpetuate the church as an institution? Is the biggest possible church necessarily a worthy goal?

 

amity,

Im sorry, but it's sort of silly to say that Baptists got along fine for centuries without missions. Every single Baptist church throughout history has been started by a missionary - as John of Japan has so aptly attempted to point out. Missions has existed since God came down and asked Adam where he was after they had eaten the forbidden fruit. Ever since that time there have been people preaching the truth of God's Word - hence missions.

Perhaps it would help if you realized that your definition of "missions" is not correct. Missions is evangelism.

btw, I totally agree with you that we ought not use the world's ungodly methods to accomplish evangelism/missions. And no, the purpose of being a missionary is not growth for the sake of growth. It IS to see people saved, though. and the more the better. However, modern means does not equal worldly (ungodly) means.

If the church at JErusalem first met in someone's house, that does not mean it cannot meet in a different building later. Just because we don't know that the first church separated the children out does not mean that we can't conduct a children's class separately today during part of our Sunday.

On that note about Sunday School - first of all, it's not just for kids. The vast majority of Sunday Schools are for all ages. And Second of all, back when the church first started Jewish children were well-educated in the Scriptures just as a matter of course. They were taught Bible in their regular school - all day every day. So their "sunday school" was actually done every day.

 

You seem to be adding to God's Word, ituttut. Nowhere can I find that Jesus mentioned a kingdom church in the Word of God. He called the church, His Church, His Bride, His Body, but never His Kingdom Church.

 

In a moment of haste I fear you misquote scripture John. Verse 13:1 precedes verse 2, and verse one does not include the whole story. Verse 13:1 reads, "Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul." We know and are to believe that Christ in Acts 9 makes statement "a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel". Jesus Christ chose Saul/Paul to be an Apostle. I will not argue with Christ over this matter, and I do not find in the commission of Saul/Paul that Barnabas was included.

I'll not put words in you mouth, but I see you make no difference between Paul and Barnabas, yet we see Christ does. Verse 2 that you quote does not an Apostle make. Barnabas and Saul are sent by the church in Antioch under the direction of the Holy Spirit, as "missionaries", not separated as Apostles. We see in Acts 14 two Apostles, one became one appointed by Christ Jesus, and one becoming one by association by doing the same ministry as the Original Apostle in the Holy Spirit.

Can we not see the same thing happened with James? Did Jesus appoint his half brother and Apostle, or did he become so by association and doing the same ministry as the original Apostles. You have been sent as a missionary to preach the gospel. You have been chosen, by those that send you, to be a missionary. Do you preach the gospel of Paul? If so then I believe you are an Apostle by way of the Apostle Paul that Christ chose to be the Apostle to the Gentile.

I do not in any way take from the ministry of Barnabas, while he did his missionary work among the Gentiles, but neither do I endeavor to place him where God does not place him. Peter was wrong in being carried away in fear of James and that other church, and we should not try to excuse Barnabas in his fear of James. Who stood up for we Gentile's? Was it James, Peter, and Barnabas? I understand what role Barnabas played as a missionary to those of Israel and the Gentile.

 

I think this may be a record...we are now discussing the hijack of the hijack of the hijack of the hijack of the hijack.

 

Rbell, btw, my husband is now a member of the "Rbell Pish Tosh club" as well! :laugh:

He's been reading over my shoulder throughout much of this ongoing discussion. You think this proves we could just have one eternal thread going on and on that would eventually cover every issue?

 

Like I said, send your $24.95 dues to Rbell...

:laugh:

BTW, I surmise your husband to be an impeccible judge of character.

:saint: :laugh:

 

I find the Word is committed to us as Ambassadors of Christ to preach His reconciliation gospel.

This tells us it is not the "great commission" we are to hold to, but preach the gospel of we that were far off. Now by the "blood of Christ" that does away with the commandments of the law contained in the ordinances, that peace is made so that He might reconcile both to God in one body, by the preaching of the Cross.

The "great commission" does not preach the Cross, and Baptist's know this. So why do we wish to continue as the "Kingdom Church" to have our sins remitted by doing the work of "repent and be baptized". This is the "Kingdom Church" and not the "Body Church" of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.

Most Baptist's I know believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation, but most continue to say they also believe in the "great commission". I honestly don't understand the marjority of Baptists.

 

You seem not to find that church. There are two gospels, so there must be two churches, that will become one.

It is very difficult to find or separate. We have to divide it out for understanding.

Acts 2:47, "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." In this church please notice we today have a church that looks to be the church that preaches the same gospel. Is that your church? Acts 2:38 is the gospel of works, and that gospel is "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Are you claiming this is your church?

I find another church built on the foundation of Jesus Christ also, but you say there is not another. I contend for the gospel of the Cross through His work for the remission of my sins, and not as those that must do their own work.