I definitely believe in man’s choice.
As for being saved and born again happening separately at different times, no, it is at the same time.
How do Baptists view I Pet 3:21
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Jul 10, 2012.
Page 2 of 5
-
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You are missing Peter's point! Salvation "by water" corrresponds to salvation by baptism in namely this point - a "FIGURE."
Noah and all his family already found "grace in the eyes of the Lord" 100 years prior to building the ark and were in the ark (figure of Christ) before a single drop of water fell. God had already closed the door himself. Hence, they are LITERALLY in Christ prior to the flood and thus they are FIGURATIVELY "in Christ" (in the ark) prior to the deluge of water from below and from above - or a complete immersion. However, the water lifted the ark (type of resurrection of Christ corresponding to the same type seen in baptism).
Because they are "corresponding figures" of the same gospel neither LITERALLY REMOVES THE FILTH OF THE FLESH or SIN of the fleshly nature but these FIGURES are responses of those whose consciences have already been made good through faith in Christ (Acts 10:43; Heb. 9:14).
It was LITERALLY saved people who first entered the ark because PREVIOUSLY they found "grace in the eyes of the Lord" and it is those who have already first PROFESSED repentance of sins and belief in Christ who are fit subjects for baptism (Acts 2:40; 8:35-37). -
-
reformed_baptist MemberSite Supporter
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
If seeing the kingdom of God is an act of faith, then it is preceded by being born again.
look also at John 6:44
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Why do we come (an act of faith)? Well Jesus Christ tells us it is because we are drawn, the act of regeneration. -
reformed_baptist MemberSite Supporter
LBCF — Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling
1. Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
WCF — Chapter X: Of Effectual Calling
1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
Notice that both documents present the exact same order of application. -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thanks for all your thoughts so far, which are much appreciated.
I'm interested also in Mark 16:16a - "whoever believes and is baptised is saved" which, again, on the face of it would suggest that both faith and baptism are necessary for salvation. What of this verse? -
-
-
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
-
-
-
-
If you fall from a ladder you've been 'baptized' by [brought under total control and the influence of] gravity.
It was the destiny of the Israelites to be baptized unto Moses [brought under the influence and control of the Mosaic Covenant] .
"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of [bringing them under the influence of] the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The children of Israel were released from bondage prior to a type of baptism in the sea; they had committed themselves to Moses (a type of Christ) prior to a type of baptism in the Red Sea. The firstborn son had died (either human or the substitute for the human - Ex. 13:13) prior to their type of baptism in the Red Sea! -
One of the most famous baptists that held that one cannot preach the Gospel to save those who already been regenerated and thus have no need to hear the message was charles Spurgeon!
take my que off him, that the Gospel is preached to dead Sinners, and the Hol;y Spirit quickens regenerates at that very moment his elect, and thus regeneration/faith to be seen as same event! -
-
reformed_baptist MemberSite Supporter
-
No such creature as one being regenerated by god, and walking around for say years before placing faith in jesus! NO NT example of that, as the sinners were preached Christ, the Holy spirit quickened/enabled them to believe, and they they received!
repentence/regeneration/faith all part tof same process , NOT placing them in their sequential order here, just saying that ALL happen at time of a person being saved by act and Will of God! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as an unregenerated believer.
Also, the very nature of regeneration as described in Ephesians 2:1-3; 8-10; 4:17-19, 24; 2 Cor. 3:3-6; 4:5-6; James 1:18; Titus 3:5; Col. 3:10; 1 Pet. 1:23-25; etc. demand that regeneration and coversion are in a LOGICAL cause and consequence relationship with each other but without any CHRONOlogical order but are SIMELTANEOUS in action as in the bullet and hole analogy.
God turns us but if God turns us we are turning and thus the cause and consequence are chronologically simeltaneous even though there is a distinction between cause and effect.
Your view has God turning us but we are not turning!
Page 2 of 5