In another thread about Rush Limbaugh, Matt Wade brought up "There are a lot of examples I can give, but I'll just leave it at two.
1. Elton John"
I assume Matt was talking about the fact that Elton is a homosekual - and in spite of that was invited to sing at the wedding of Rush and his fourth wife.
So here is the question for this thread:
If you found out that a person who provided a service was a homosekual - would you end the relationship?
For example
Accountant
Auto Mechanic
Babysitter
Corner Store clerk
Lawyer
Minister
Taxi Driver
Paper boy
What about other occupations
And
Would you maintain social friendship with a homosekual? Would you bring them to church with you?
Suppose you were witnessing to them - and they demanded you stop or that would end the friendship - your response?
other comments?
Salty
PS when replying please, i beg of you do not "quote" my entire post - please - its way too long
How I would react.....
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Salty, Apr 30, 2011.
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First of all, I pray for God to give me wisdom in dealing with this. Secondly, I don't act any differently towards them than I do any other lost person - They all know that I have a strong stance on the Bilbe, and they also know I am a conservative voter - but I don't flaunt my aversion to their lifestyle in their faces....if they ask, I will tell them. But I don't seek to patronize or scorn them. Sin is sin is sin.
There is only one unforgiveable sin - denial of Christ as Savior.
Let he who is wthout sin cast the first stone??
If I were ever able to get them to church, believe me, I would. Until that day, I try to walk the walk of a Christian.
Those are my random but sincere thoughts.
Debbie Mc -
My comment wasn't about not associating with a homosexual. It was about not hiring a guy for your wedding that is a known homosexual activist. It seems to me that as a conservative, it's not very consistent of Rush to hire Elton.
Should we refuse to get in a taxi because you find out the driver is a homosexual? No, I'm not saying that at all.
Should we invite them to church? That wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd present the Gospel to them outside of church first though. I believe the church is primarily a place to edify the believers. Too many people use the church as a place to bring unbelievers because they are too scared to present the Gospel individually. -
Yes
Yes
I would stop directly witnessing to them and allow my life to continue to be a witness and continue befriending them.
We have used the word abomination to give us license to ostracize homosexuals and that is wrong on the part of Christians. There are many other sins in the scriptures which God also calls abominations and I'd bet at least 1 applies to each one of us here. So am I supposed to stop associating with you, or you with me? No. So neither should we stop associating with homosexuals. We are to LOVE the sinner. God loves them, he simply hates their sin as much as he hates any sin anyone commits. God hates all sin.
Sometimes I think we've all gone overboard with wearing the mantle of conservativeism because we're trying to appear so holy and just. Instead we need to take a harder look at scripture and remember who Jesus associated with in His life....the lowest of the low. He loved them, and won them for Heaven. We should do the same. -
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It is my conviction that simply withdrawing friendships and relationships with those of the homosexual persuasion is not the correct response of believers who take seriously the challenge to be salt and light to the culture at large. That having been said, dealing with the "militant representatives" of such is a different challenge altogether. We should be clear, humble, but clear that we as Christians stand morally opposed to such conduct, and particularly against cultural elements which seek to "legitimize" it in all ways.
We should clearly and humbly communicate that "we" are only "morally" different in that, as believers, we have been redeemed. Judging (real judgement) is in the job description of the Diety (YHWH) only. -
Auto Mechanic.......................Maybe
Babysitter.............................Need you ask?
Corner Store clerk...................Probably
Lawyer..................................Yes
Minister.................................Definitely
Taxi Driver.............................Don't know
Paper boy..............................No
On the subject of close friendships, it shouldn't even be a question. Do not be deceived, (And Paul says that because many ARE deceived) evil communications corrupt good manners. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In any relationship of any depth whatsoever, the spiritual issues naturally come up. I don't shy away from those subjects nor beat others over the head with them. The most important thing the other person needs to know is that you love and respect them... and that you are actually listening to and considering what they are saying, not just giving them a canned presentation.
When I am actually having a conversation about spiritual things with a person, I can rest assured that the Spirit has already been working in their lives and continues to work through people like me.
We could well ask the same questions you asked of heterosexual people we know who are involved in sexual activity outside of marriage. I think there is just as much sin there as in homosexual sexual activity.
One does not have direct control over sexual attraction (to the great frustration of heterosexual and homosexual people everywhere), but we do have control over what we do about it, unless we have given ourselves over to sin and have so damaged our self-control that we need to enter a structured support program. The scripture only condemns the intention to commit inappropriate sexual acts and acting upon inappropriate sexual desires*.
The homosexual community tends to push people to act on their attractions, implying that one is less than human or fulfilled unless they participate in sexual activity. To a slightly lessor degree, popular culture does the same with heterosexual men and women, essentially claiming that sexual self-control is somehow weird or psychologically damaging.
I am friends with a number of people who identify as gay/lesbian/bi-sexual and know the a number of them are likely true believers in Christ. I don't like the way they identify themselves (although they are simply going by the way popular culture likes to pidgeon-hole people, and frankly, the church doesn't really help in this area very much), but know that most of them truly struggle with these issues. Several of them have told me they live a celibate lifestyle, which I heartily approve of for all single persons. I don't think God condemns people for things over which they have no control.
However there are ways that we can change our desires and behavior. Through the use of simple spiritual disciplines and the action of Christ in our life, we can be transformed and gain mastery over the desires of our flesh so that we can be useful in the Kingdom of God in the power of the Spirit.
And yes, I believe persons with same-sex attraction can have their desires transformed through the transformation of character. The sad thing is that the vast majority of pastors and churches know very little about how to help their congregations enter into true discipleship with Christ. The sheer number of prominent pastors whose lives are out-of-control demonstrates how grave the situation really is.
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* I know someone is going to rightly bring up the subject of lust. Jesus speaks very strongly on the issue of lust. However many people confuse lust with inappropriate sexual desire. I think what Jesus is really teaching about lust is that lust is the desire and intent to have inappropriate sexual relations who someone if the situation presented itself and the chances of getting caught were negligible. Jesus is talking about the character of a person. There are many people who are murderers in their character, but wouldn't actually go through with it because they know they would eventually get caught and punished. There are many people who are thieves in their character, but they don't steal because of strict accounting methods and constant oversight. There are many people who are adulterers in their character (lust), who don't commit adultery because they think they might get caught. So when Jesus is talking about the issues of murder, lust, etc. in Matthew, He is talking about the issues of character and the way one's righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees (those who simply managed to not commit the "big sins"), but instead have a character that would not commit those sins if it had the opportunity. -
Even Camelback Bible Church, whose pastor serves on the Council of the Gospel Coalition with Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, and Ligon Duncan, every year hosts a "Boys to Men" extravaganza as part of the church's Performance Series. Always performing is the Phoenix Metropolitan Men's Chorus, "a voice of the g@y community".
Here is the Chorus's Facebook with an album of them at the Gospel Coalition church last year.
Caution—other albums feature their Jello wrestling fundraiser, etc. -
preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I wonder how many of us are friends with or associate with people who have had s3xual relationships outside of marriage? Whether same gender or opposite gender?
Why is it that homos3xuals get blasted but guys who walk around hooking up with any girl they can get a pass? Why is it we are tolerant of the woman who stays in monogamous relationships but always sleeps with her boyfriend of the time?
My family has a number of friends who are dealing with or openly practising homs3xuality. We appreciate them for who they are as people, enjoy their company, and look for opportunities to minister to them...just like with our heteros3xual friends who are in openly s3xual, non-married relationships. -
Who are these people that give them a pass? Every once in a while I see these vague and broad claims made but I never see it happening.
What often gets overlooked by some with regards to homosexuals is that they are the ones pushing for political and cultural acceptance. They work to have it taught in our public schools and to get laws passed to accept them as well. This brings their behavior to the front. It is a result of their own actions.
I do not see heterosexuals adulterers pushing for acceptance in public schools by things like teach adultery history or pushing for legislation to give adulterers special rights. If they were you would see the same attention on them as well. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Among the people I work with, most of the unmarried 20- to 30-year-olds are living with a boyfriend/girlfriend (if it is a serious relationship) or indulging in a sexual relationship with those they are dating. (I'm told it's generally a third to fourth date kind of thing.)
People were shocked when they realized I wasn't living with my wife before we were married a little over five years ago, and they would have been astounded to know that we had not consummated our relationship prior to our wedding.
And these are mostly people who regularly attend church (many of them Methodists) and claim the name of Christ.
The accepted pattern seems to be:
1.) Go out a few times.
2.) Initiate a sexual relationship.
3.) Get serious.
4.) Move in together.
5.) Get engaged.
6.) Get married.
7.) Wonder why the relationship is so shallow and the other person seems not the be the same person you dated/married.
8.) Fight.
9.) Figure out how to become happily married or divorce. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Only one of the persons I know (who was formally a practicing lesbian, and happens to still identify herself as a lesbian, even though she fell in love with a man and married him) is an activist. The rest are quietly living out their lives.
Remember, just like Jesse Jackson does not speak for all black people, gay advocacy groups do not speak for all gay people, or even the majority of them.
2.) What I have described seems to tie into what is popularly portrayed in the media, including television sitcoms/dramas where the characters become sexually-involved very early in the relationship and moving in together is considered a prerequisite to engagement and marriage.
3.) Beyond my co-workers, I have also seen this pattern in my own family and relationships outside the office.
4.) Do you have any evidence to suggest that the majority of people in their 20s and 30s are sexually chaste before marriage in other parts of the country outside of North Texas (the "Buckle of the Bible Belt")? I'd love to hear that but it doesn't seem to line up with reality. -
Ok?
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Westboro Baptist Church claims to speak for God. Do you this He endorses their message?
If we don't hold God responsible for Westboro's message (which He could actually do something about with some well-placed lightning bolts), why should I hold all gay people responsible for what some gay activists say?
"Really? You want to paint the whole country based on what some Methodist church does in your area?"
I assumed that you thought your point mattered and I'm trying to take you seriously.
You implied that I'm falsely "painting the whole country" as having a predominant sexual ethic that is counter to scripture, yet when I asked for you to present some sort of evidence that counters my position, you want to know "why would it matter."
If you are simply going to be contentious and not participate seriously in this discussion, I'll stop wasting my time. -
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Maybe you actually mean that it would be a good thing to paint the whole country based on what some Methodist church does in my area?
Come on, if you miscommunicated, just say so. But don't deny what is there for everyone to see in Post #13.
But you didn't actually deal with the biggest one I already answered:
Does God affirm Westboro Baptist Church's message?
If not, should we blame God (who actually can do something about it) for their message?
If not, why should we blame all gay people for the words and actions of a relatively small number of activists?
Once you answer those simple questions, I'll know how to respond to the rest to make my points more relative to the situation at hand.
If you don't answer them and change the subject to something else, then I'll know if you are more interested in uncovering truth or "winning" an argument. -
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preachinjesus Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I know some us don't have the context as the rest but in reality if you begin looking around at the actual stats and behaviours the evangelical church in America has completely lost the war on se3xuality in the last generation or two. More people between the ages of 20 and 39 are likely to be non-married than married. Of couples getting married (specifically in the area where I live, a large metro area) 90 - 95% either have had or are having biblically inappropriate relationships with their significant other prior to marriage. Cohabitation is off the charts, probably about 50% of the couples coming through the church where I serve for our premarital counselling program are living together.
The reality is too many in the evangelical church are way too comfortable with hetros3xual misconduct and then won't have anything to do with homos3xuals. It's a double standard.
Personally our family has friends who are all over the place. We have people we know who cohabitate before marriage. We have people we know who are homos3xuals. We have people we know who are single but very open to s3xual relationships. We have people we know who are living a biblically pure and authentic lives. We minister to all people. Just seems to me the second ground is often maligned while the others get a pass.
The point, in relation to the OP, is about the social relationships.
Many of our friends who live in homos3xual relationships are so hurt and cast out by evangelicals that they have an immediate response of fear when they find out we are loving and caring for them (while upholding biblical standards of purity in leadership and our own lives.) Christianity no longer has a voice in that community because of the hate, hypocrisy, and vitriol of too many of our former leaders. We have much ground to redeem. :)
(as a side note I hope this convo stays open...its an important one to have)
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