You are being silly. What man in Jesus time had not been born physically?
What man in our time is not born physically?
What man in any generation is not born physically or of the flesh:
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Are you saying that there are people alive today that don't have a physical or fleshly body? Are they aliens from another solar system? Or just lego creations? Just what are you talking about? Yes you are being silly!!
How important is knowledge in getting saved?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jan 23, 2007.
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I agree that “water” and the “spirit” are needed, but I gather from scripture is that the “water” is H2O.
Acts 8:36: We see the eunuch who recognizes the necessity of water for baptism.
Acts 10:47: Peter says can anyone forbid water for baptizing these people.
Acts 22:16: Ananias tells Saul arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins.
Titus 3:5-6: Paul writes about the washing of regeneration, which is poured out on us in reference to water baptism. “Washing” (loutron) generally refers to a ritual washing with water.
I have more if needed. But water (H2O) is always, that I’ve noticed anyway linked to baptism.
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DHK,
bmerr here. Well, I knew I was in for a scolding. But I didn't accuse you of anything. I just explained how a person can demonstrate drastic changes in lifestyle and speech, and yet not be saved.
I did not deny the work of the Holy Spirit through Paul. Paul was an apostle, and thus received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit worked mightily through Paul. But the changes in Paul's life were his response to the word of God, not a mysterious, miraculous, direct work of the Spirit on Paul's heart.
I do not believe that water washes away sin. The blood of Christ does that. But the blood of Christ does not wash away one's sin until that one does what God commanded him to do in order to have his sins remitted, or washed away, which happens to be that his is to be immersed in water for the remission of sins. In so doing, he calls upon the name of the Lord.
And please stop telling me what I know and what I don't know. That is no way to carry on a conversation.
In Christ,
bmerr -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Baptism was not and is not part of the equation. He was baptized afterward, after he was saved. It is never a part of salvation, but a step of obedience after salvation. -
2 Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
--Then and only then did he admit that he had done all that the Lord commanded him to do. He said that he "had finished his course." He completed what the Lord had wanted him to do. The time of his departure from this earth was now at hand. He was ready to die. Now, according to you he would be saved. You believe in a works-based salvation, as you say, "the blood of Christ does not wash away one's sin until one does what God commanded him to do..."
We receive remission of sins when we believe. That is very clear.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
But because you twist certain Scriptures and make them say what they don't teach, you fail to understand what the Bible teaches. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
You have not the slightest idea of what you're talking! Therefore you won't understand DHK - who in this case perfectly knows what he's talking. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Yes in fact! And isn't there a Scripture that also says, one is justified (saved!) without works! Faith without works! Not even the work of faith as man's believing, is what saves him. -
Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
This is what the Reformation was all about! If you're a Catholic, then it's faith plus works, justification plus sanctification. If you're a Protestant then it's by grace only through faith only: justified, saved (irrevocably)!
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Gerhard Ebersoehn Active MemberSite Supporter
Forgiveness is salvation; is redemption, fully and finally and forever more. Forgiveness is justification; justification is salvation; is redemption; fully and finally and forever more. A man justified is a man in heaven, as we say for being saved. He has everlasting life, the gift God never repents of.
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So, again, he should be a reliable source for you, right?
Even your Reformation and Restoration folks read these writings, but of course like the bible they reject/ignore the parts that does not support there theology and hold on the parts that seemingly does.
Do you realized that your heavy rejection of baptism is nothing more than heresy birthed from bitterness against the Roman Catholic Church?
Throughout the history of christianity till that split, baptism for the forgiveness of sins was never considered heresy.
But some how you folks came up with the "Alter Call" as a replacement and even now its something different. Make up your minds.
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DHK,
bmerr here. I simply cannot devote the time necessary to defend myself every time you misrepresent my words. If it seems as if I'm ignoring you from now on, I am.
In Christ,
bmerr -
"Throughout the history of the church" is actually what is being discussed here. I believe that Scripture shows that the New Testament-era churches did NOT require completed baptism for salvation.
"Heavy rejection of baptism" What? I have been unmistakably clear on a thread you are very active on that baptism is an obligation of ANY believer of Jesus Christ.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=965515&postcount=10
Same for this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=967008#post967008
I am disappointed that you would resort to this rather than withdraw yourself.
I am glad Catholicism has better polemicists. Otherwise, no one would respect it. -
Jesus was not telling Nicodemus to be born physically, as you claim I was asserting.
Jesus statement was to answer Nicodemus's query about the meaning of "born again."
We have all had a natural = physical birth. However, not everyone has been born spiritually.
Jesus was telling already physically-born Nicodemus of the need to be spiritually born. -
I relayed the information that ancient Hebrews used such terms as "water" to describe physical birth.
Your advice about not reading modern things into ancient texts is very wise. That is why I do not see `baptism' where John 3:3-6 is translated "water." I see how ancient Hebrews, such as Jesus and Nicodemus, would have understood "born of water" -- physical birth.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus that there needed to be a second birth, a spiritual birth, for one to enter God's kingdom. -
Why mention a physical birth? Because of its importance.
If you are born once, you will die twice.
If you are born twice, you will die once.
You must be born again. -
So Nicodemus being a teacher, should’ve understood Ezekiel as to that there will be a day when the Lord will wash your heart, your life and the inner man. The Lord will put a new heart in you and His Spirit in you.
So now in John 3, when Jesus tells Nicodemus that you must be born of water and the spirit, Nicodemus would have known that Jesus was coming to fulfill the promise of the new covenant.
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John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
It also refers to the Spirit of God. God will put a new Spirit in them. We are cleansed through both agencies: the Word of God and the Holy Spirit, by which we are born again. One cannot do without either. The passage does not refer to baptism, and makes no reference to it. -
Back to John 3, I believe that Jesus was quite surprised that Nicodemus, a teacher, didn’t understand what He was saying to him. These religious leaders were never accused of not knowing God’s word. As I said earlier, OT context, Nicodemus should’ve picked up on Jesus’ reference to ‘water’ in OT context, Jesus isn’t even discussing NT, again no NT existed…
About 200 years earlier, the Jews had slipped from understanding the holiness, love, and spiritual relationship with God to a religious legalism. Nicodemus should have known more about the repentance and purification associated with ‘ritual washing’ and the important role the Holy Spirit would have.
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There are many references in the Bible that connect the Word to cleansing. Nicodemus knew that from his thorough understanding of the OT. Jesus rebuked him for that. Baptism is not a Jewish institution. It is strictly NT. It had nothing to do with the discourse between Nicodemus and Jesus. To force it in there just to justify your preconceived ideas is not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
Jeremiah makes fun of those people who connect water with the washing away of sin, and Nicodemus knew that:
Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
To him, a Rabbi, a teacher of the OT, baptism was ridiculous. It had nothing to do with salavation. It never did. The way to enter into the covenant in the OT was circumcision, not baptism. Jesus, in no way refers to baptism. Water refers to the Word throughout the Scriptures. I have given you plenty of Scriptures to indicate that. One of them in particular is very clear.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Either you believe the Scriptures or you don't! Which is it? The Bible interprets itself.
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