1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured How much more influence do you think Luther has been than Jesus?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Alan Gross, May 21, 2020.

  1. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "greater works than these shall he do".
    John 14:12b
     
  2. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2018
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    37
    Faith:
    Baptist
    care to elaborate?
     
  3. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I heard that some people think The Bible teaches something needed to be reformed. Who was Luther?
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,760
    Likes Received:
    1,603
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible did not need to be Reformed. The doctrine and practices of the Church needed reforming.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist
    O. K., I won't be able to follow along with that thinking, as if there was a Bible church that needed reforming.

    The Bible defines churches.

    So, I can follow that The Bible did not need reforming, as far as what the Bible states about what a Bible church is, as well as it's Doctrines and Practices.

    Looks like the Roman Catholic Civil Government man-made definition of "The Church" is being referred to, as opposed to The Bible, which never had and doesn't have the definition of "The Church", as invented by The Popes to masquerade and pretend that their Civil Rule had something to do with The Bible, or a "church".

    Jeses Founded His churches, as the seven in Asia, and they were not, "The Church", & infinantly different that the concoction that some seem to be saying needed reforming.

    So, that makes reformation extra- Biblical as some notion.

    Ever seen any Bible about it?

    Luther seems to have had a big influence on something.

    Would he be said to have more influence than Jesus?
     
  6. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Maybe "M........." commented and deleted?

    Astute point, however, as with the comment about The Bible.

    (oh yes, I was here before and the PMs will say, "he is a Bible Believer", which of course reaks hellfire, damnation, and convicts, where I to actually use The Bible and it is Accompanied by The Holy Spirit, as in The King James Bible says, inJohn 16:8;
    "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:".

    If I am said to be a
    Obama Birther, Lifer, Obeasist, Conspiricy Theorist, Homophober, misogynirean theorumist
    Masklessnessist, then that would be less serious, of course.)

    Luther was said to be associated with a "Faith alone" phase of wording.

    "Works", then, Luther was saying are not to be considered, for Salvation.

    The Bible states that; "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8.

    However, God Has a lot of verses in The Bible.

    This is what I would say:

    God and Luther said works are not to be considered for Salvation.

    Now, if we define the words
    "Faith alone",
    as "Faith in Jesus, alone",
    as The Way of Salvation,
    that will work to define what God Says, as THE WAY GOD SAVES SOULS.

    .....

    Again, Luther was said to be associated with a
    "Faith alone" phase of wording.

    "WORKS", then, GOD & Luther was saying are not to considered, for SALVATION, since;

    The Bible states that we are
    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8.

    .....
    However, secondly, if we define the words: "Faith alone",

    as "Faith in Jesus, alone",
    as The Way of Salvation,
    and even if we include the words 'grace' and 'gift': as in;

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
    Ephesians 2:8.

    >>>> This will NOT work
    to define what God SAYS
    as The Way He Saves Souls,

    >>>> Unless, the inplication and Spiritual Reality are included with "Faith",

    >>>> which are the Preaching of The Gospel,
    The Conviction of sin in the lost soul by The Holy Spirit,
    and The second portion of The Twin Doctrines of Repentance and Faith, being Repentance,
    as Taught in all the other Bible Scriptures.

    This was apparent in the comment that may have been deleted.

    If: "Faith alone"

    ... were said to be historical consent, that has never Saved any soul.

    If: "Faith alone"

    means (the preached word)
    and God Wrought Conviction BLESSED of THE NEW BIRTH from ABOVE
    with Repentance & Faith alone,
    then yes,
    God Saves souls that One Way.

    Salvation is of The Lord.

    Jesus is The Savior.

    I hope Luther wasn't influencing the lost World with easy believism, without Repentance, to give historical concent, or even to "pray".

    Praying is not Taught in The Bible, as HOW GOD SAVES SOULS, either.

    Those other gospels leave lost souls the way they were found.
     
    #6 Alan Gross, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    257
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The "greater works," in my view, are not a matter of men doing greater works than, for example, calming the storm, giving sight to the blind, raising the dead (which seem to be lacking in the history of the Church), but a reference to the administration of the Gospel, which Christ was not performing during His earthly ministry. So the answer to the OP would be...Luther has not been a "greater influence," though perhaps we might say that he has influenced more people in numbers. Sadly enough that influence has not all been good, seeing that many believe we are "saved by faith" and equate, as do Catholics, the justification of the Old Testament Saint with Eternal Redemption.

    God bless.
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    257
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Doctrine and Practice of the Church still needs reforming.

    God bless.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Mikey

    Mikey Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2018
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    37
    Faith:
    Baptist

    You disagree that we are saved by faith? And OT saints do not have eternal salvation? could you explain your position a bit more so i can understand
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,355
    Likes Received:
    2,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All who ever have been redeemed were on the basis of the Cross, and them placing trust and faith in that promised messiah!
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,355
    Likes Received:
    2,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That was what God sent the reformation for, as the Church of Rome had gone official Apostate in regards to salvation as taught in Bible, and needed to ignite that truth of Pauline Justification once again!
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,877
    Likes Received:
    257
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Be glad to, but remember...you asked for it, lol

    We are not saved by faith we are saved by grace through faith. That might seem like splitting hairs but the fact is that if we are saved by faith then we are saved by something...we do. Secondly, faith is the result of something, right? So where do we receive the knowledge of whatever it is that we place faith in? Simply put, faith has always followed revelation from God. Men and women must first hear God's will in order to believe, have faith, and obey. This is a consistent pattern throughout Scripture. Abraham is said to be declared righteous, that is, justified...after he was told he would have a son of his own loins and that son would be the source for blessing to all nations of the earth. He believed God would allow his presumably barren wife to bear that son. So the point would be this: saving faith can only be accomplished when it is expressed towards God in obedience to His will. It is by grace that God gives Man the revelation necessary for his salvation, no matter what Age/Era we are looking at.

    Now, concerning the second part of your question, that there are different dispensations/administration is a Biblical fact (though some refuse to recognize this). No man was under the Covenant of Law prior to Moses, right? But they were from Moses to Christ. So we see two differing Ages and within those two Ages we see Revelation from God differs. Abraham, for example, received a veiled Gospel of Christ concerning his seed, but did not know He would be God manifest in the flesh come to die in his stead. Isaiah had a more detailed, though still veiled knowledge of the Christ as reported in Isaiah 53, yet neither did he know He would be God manifest in the flesh come to die in his stead. The very disciples of Christ walked with Christ and ministered under Him preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and in fact, the Father revealed to them that He, Jesus, was the Christ (that had been prophesied) and that He was the Son of the Living God (Matthew 16:13-17)...but rejected the Gospel of Christ (Matthew 16:20-23). So we see that Revelation was progressive. I just wanted to make that point before I go any further.

    Now I will make one point that is incontrovertible: Eternal Salvation is only possible through the death of Christ. That is the heart of the Gospel of Christ, that He came that men might not perish...but have everlasting/eternal life. So if we are going to say that men had eternal life in the Old Testament...where did they get it? Not, as some suppose, because the Lord gave it to them prior to Christ dying. There is a mystical delusion touted as Biblical Doctrine that is taught by some that this is the case. If that is the case, then why does Hebrews teach...


    Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


    What we can say about the Old Testament Saints is that they were Justified by faith, which most Protestants as well as the Catholics confuse with Eternal Redemption. But note the quote above and understand that the Promise of God was in fact Eternal Redemption. They died not receiving that promise as well numerous others. Hebrews 9-11 makes the point that "Perfection," that is, Completion in regards to Atonement did not take place under the Law. And just to give a few verses to example that...


    Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

    1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


    Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version (KJV)

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


    In vv.1-4 we see that the sacrifices of the Law could not make the comer thereunto (the worshiper) perfect/complete (in regards to remission of sin, which is why the offerings were made) because they could not take away sin or the need for further sacrifice. But the Sacrifice of Christ makes us perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins...for ever.

    So while the Old Testament Saints were "saved" from an eternal perspective, meaning their eternal destinies were secured because they were justified during their lifetimes, we must not confuse nor equate that to the Redemptive Work of Christ and what that accomplished. And we must not forget that their faith and belief, and yes, their works...were a result of receiving revelation from God in which they could believe, have faith, and perform works (and in that order, lol).

    So no, they did not have Eternal Salvation until Christ died in their stead, eternally redeemed them, and liberated them from Hades, the resting place of the dead faithful in past Ages.

    I hope this wasn't too long a response, Mikey, and I appreciate the very considerate query.

    God bless.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    5,933
    Likes Received:
    456
    John 14:12 is a reference to the coming Holy Spirit and the works that would be accomplished by the enabling power of Holy Spirit to establish the church and bring many sons and daughters of Christ to salvation.

    All glory to God and none to man. So Luther and anyone else gets none and he would agree with me, imo.

    peace to you
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,760
    Likes Received:
    1,603
    Faith:
    Baptist
    After the Apostolic age the doctrines of the church fell into mixture and error. "Bible churches" were hard to find from the 5th-16th centuries. When Martin Luther came on the scene he did not really reform anything. Luther challenged Rome's authority. The meat and potatoes of the Reformation would advance through the writing and preaching of other men. Study church history. It is quite revealing.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The 'Winner' thing I posted on this one needs to be 500 feet tall.

    Beautiful.
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    187
    Faith:
    Baptist

    Sorry: Weekly briefing: Ravi Zacharias dies, Trump calls churches 'essential,' pro-lifers on 'Jane Roe'

    Within this statement:

    "O.K., I won't be able to follow along with that thinking, as if there was a Bible church that needed reforming."

    ...I would also place what you said about, "Bible churches" were hard to find from the 5th-16th centuries."

    I say that Bible churches were there, always, as Jesus Promised, from the Time He Founded them, until now.

    The woman fled into the wilderness.

    *Revelation 12:5 "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

    6 "The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days.

    7 "Then a war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.…"
    Berean Study Bible ·

    * I view 'The Seven Spirits', 'The Seven Churches', and 'The Seven Visions" all the same way as, "The Seven Spirits".

    There is One Holy Spirit.

    "The Seven Spirits" is symbolic wording, as is The rest of Revelation, expressing the various (perfect #7) characteristics of The Holy Spirit

    Isaiah 11:1 "Then a shoot will spring up from the stump of Jesse, and a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.

    2 "The Spirit of the LORD (1) will rest on Him— (2) the Spirit of wisdom and (3) understanding, the Spirit of (4) counsel and (5) strength, the Spirit of (6) knowledge and the (7) fear of the LORD.)

    In other words, if The Book of Revelation gives this homiltic device of viewing the Holy Spirit in A COMPOSITE of The Seven Spirits, symbolically, then I will apply the characteristics of the Seven Churches to each of The Lord's churches, where they to fit, and The Seven Visions ( SEPARATELY, AS IF THEY ALL DESCRIBE ONE PERIOD of TIME {which they do} ) to this age, in Composite, where they fit.

    So, Revelation 12:5 gives me: "The woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days"

    and indicates,
    "Bible churches" were hard to find from the 5th-16th centuries."
    & as;
    I say that Bible churches were there, always, as Jesus Promised, from the Time He Founded them, until now.
     
  17. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,760
    Likes Received:
    1,603
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Alan, your writing style is very difficult to follow. I will leave you to the more learned members of this board.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,355
    Likes Received:
    2,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus did not mean that we would do better miracles then raising Lazarus, or healing all sick and possessed, but that due to us being many, we can and have been getting out the Gospel message, as saved lost sinners biggest miracleiof all!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,355
    Likes Received:
    2,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God kept even in Rome the true Gospel in some persons teachings throughout history, but by time of the Reformation, pretty much all of the true Gospel had been snuffed out!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    45,355
    Likes Received:
    2,236
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Woman there was and is Israel, and God always have had His redeemed, even among the RCC back then, but sent reformation to have the true Gospel rediscovered!
     
Loading...