I Tim 2:8-14

[JesusFan]

Why is that such a big deal to you? Did Jesus make a big deal about it… or did I miss that. Did he throw the first stone or any stone for that matter at the female adulteress, did he accuse her of anything, did he judge her? Or did he forgive her and defend her? Jesus seemed much more upset with the money changers in the temple, overthrowing their tables and goods for sale… in the temple!

God made a "big deal" about that though, as it relates to His view of headship authority!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God made a "big deal" about that though, as it relates to His view of headship authority!

Isn’t Jesus God?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Isn’t Jesus God?

What does he say?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What does he say?

Come on… aren’t you the “Jesus Fan”

 

[AustinC]

Women are not to be either pastors nor elders in a local church, correct?

Elders, correct.
Pastors, this will depend on whether a pastor is an elder. Certainly an elder is a pastor and thus a man.
However, your question is a strawman as it has nothing to do with the Bible text of this thread. What does the text, here in 1 Timothy, tell us?

 

[CalTech]

No one disagrees with God inspiring this text. Read the text. Look at what Paul actually says, not what he doesn't say. The word "desire" is important in this text. He is not making a universal command to all churches throughout all time. If he is, then you have to take Paul's comments about God desiring all men to be saved to actually be universal salvation to all human beings. Consistency, here, is important.

Greetings,
First, I would like to ask where does this word "Desire" appear in 1 Tim 2? I see it not once in this chapter.
Secondly, Paul is writing a "universal" command for ALL the ages during the Church age because He was writing to Christians within this Chapter, and all of 1 & 2 Timothy....
Matter of fact one needs to read 1 Tim 1, particularly at the end where it mentions:
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

So when you begin to read 1 Tim 2:1 Paul is EXHORTING Timothy:
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Which is following Paul's strong rebuke against Hymenaeus & Alexander, because it was obvious these two men were making a mockery and blaspheming the Lord's Gospel and living a Holy life.. So Paul in the 2nd chapter is exhorting him to be careful and how to live and teach what the Lord desires of His People. So this means he did not desire the action's of those two men to be repeated, because they were rebellious, and separated from the Body of Christ.

Context is very important.......... to give a clear picture of what was taking place. So therefore everything Paul is teaching is for the Good of the whole church throughout the ages, which includes the time in which we find ourselves now.

Lord bless you....

 

[CalTech]

I am not arguing against the order of creation. Eve was deceived. Adam completely failed in his protection of Eve, which is why the curse fell on Adam.

Greetings,

Actually the ground was cursed, and Adam was going to suffer due to that curse. He was going to have to toil:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

And it is confirmed here:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Actually Cain was cursed by the Lord due to him murdering his brother Abel:

Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

The Lord bless you....

 

[AustinC]

Still we are in fact assigning status to each of the rolls… ie where does the woman stand with regard to the man…. Even today, man has supremacy above woman. Even though both failed in their rolls played.

Society may assign status, but God does not. God assigns roles to us and we either fulfill the roles he has given or we hide them and don't fulfill the role given to us.
I think this is where me, especially, can become prideful. If we, as Christian men, view roles as differing status, then we have misunderstood scripture. God tells us that the Spirit gives gifts as the Spirit sees fit. There is no status in these gifts. In fact Paul goes out of his way to equate gifts with various body parts and he says that those gifts that aren't as noticeable are vital to the body. Therefore, I do not see men or women having anything to do with status. God tells us that gender has nothing to do with status. "There is neither male nor female..."
We do have roles. May we be content in the role God gives.

 

[AustinC]

Greetings,
First, I would like to ask where does this word "Desire" appear in 1 Tim 2? I see it not once in this chapter.
Secondly, Paul is writing a "universal" command for ALL the ages during the Church age because He was writing to Christians within this Chapter, and all of 1 & 2 Timothy....
Matter of fact one needs to read 1 Tim 1, particularly at the end where it mentions:
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

So when you begin to read 1 Tim 2:1 Paul is EXHORTING Timothy:
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Which is following Paul's strong rebuke against Hymenaeus & Alexander, because it was obvious these two men were making a mockery and blaspheming the Lord's Gospel and living a Holy life.. So Paul in the 2nd chapter is exhorting him to be careful and how to live and teach what the Lord desires of His People. So this means he did not desire the action's of those two men to be repeated, because they were rebellious, and separated from the Body of Christ.

Context is very important.......... to give a clear picture of what was taking place. So therefore everything Paul is teaching is for the Good of the whole church throughout the ages, which includes the time in which we find ourselves now.

Lord bless you....

English Standard Version

1 Timothy 2:3-4,8-15

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

 

[AustinC]

Greetings,

Actually the ground was cursed, and Adam was going to suffer due to that curse. He was going to have to toil:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

And it is confirmed here:
Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Actually Cain was cursed by the Lord due to him murdering his brother Abel:

Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

I hope that clears up your confusion.

The Lord bless you....

Paul helps us here.
Romans 5:12-21
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Society may assign status, but God does not. God assigns roles to us and we either fulfill the roles he has given or we hide them and don't fulfill the role given to us.
I think this is where me, especially, can become prideful. If we, as Christian men, view roles as differing status, then we have misunderstood scripture. God tells us that the Spirit gives gifts as the Spirit sees fit. There is no status in these gifts. In fact Paul goes out of his way to equate gifts with various body parts and he says that those gifts that aren't as noticeable are vital to the body. Therefore, I do not see men or women having anything to do with status. God tells us that gender has nothing to do with status. "There is neither male nor female..."
We do have roles. May we be content in the role God gives.

Humans are never content. That’s not our natures.

 

[AustinC]

Humans are never content. That’s not our natures.

Indeed, yet Paul could say that he had "learned to be content in every situation." Therefore it is possible.

 

[CalTech]

English Standard Version

1 Timothy 2:3-4,8-15

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Okay,
I see.
I only utilize the KJV.
However I am a bit confused, how does this justify your statement, regarding Paul " He is not making a universal command to all churches throughout all time."

When in fact Paul was making a "universal command" to all the church age. You have not answered my response clearly.

Thank you....
Lord bless you...

 

[CalTech]

Paul helps us here.
Romans 5:12-21
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This does not back up your statement that God cursed Adam......so still not clear to me what you are trying to project.

Thank you.
The Lord bless you....

 

[AustinC]

This does not back up your statement that God cursed Adam......so still not clear to me what you are trying to project.

Thank you.
The Lord bless you....

Cal, if Romans 5 cannot convince you that in Adam breaking covenant with God, a curse fell upon Adam, his offspring and all creation, I don't know what to say.

 

[AustinC]

Okay,
I see.
I only utilize the KJV.
However I am a bit confused, how does this justify your statement, regarding Paul " He is not making a universal command to all churches throughout all time."

When in fact Paul was making a "universal command" to all the church age. You have not answered my response clearly.

Thank you....
Lord bless you...

When you desire something, does that mean it is a command that it will happen or does that mean it is what you would ideally like to see happen?
Is Paul making a universal command in this passage or is he stating his desire for this church and those in this church?
I do not question the inspiration of God to speak to his church in every season. I am asking if this is a command by Paul or a desire of Paul?

 

[Reynolds]

Your opinion… you do know what they are like right?

You obviously care because you can't leave it alone.

 

[Reynolds]

I always agree with God, don’t you?

You agree with your wife's rebellion against God.

 

[CalTech]

When you desire something, does that mean it is a command that it will happen or does that mean it is what you would ideally like to see happen?
Is Paul making a universal command in this passage or is he stating his desire for this church and those in this church?
I do not question the inspiration of God to speak to his church in every season. I am asking if this is a command by Paul or a desire of Paul?[/QUOTE

Greetings,

The Word Exhort, which means:
EXHORT', v.t. egzhort'. [L. exhortor; ex and hortor, to encourage, to embolden, to cheer, to advise. The primary sense seems to be to excite or to give strength, spirit or courage.]

1. To incite by words or advice; to animate or urge by arguments to a good deed or to any laudable conduct or course of action.

I exhort you to be of good cheer. Acts 27.

Young men also exhort to be sober minded.

Exhort servants to be obedient to their masters. Titus 2.

2. To advise; to warn; to caution.

3. To incite or stimulate to exertion.

EXHORT', v.i. To deliver exhortation; to use words or arguments to incite to good deeds.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort. Acts 2.

Paul is speaking in the Power of the Holy Spirit, God's Will for the Body of Christ, to live a Holy Life as he lists in 1Tim 1, and in 1 Tim 2. So that they would not be as the two men he is referring too in 1 Tim 1:1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
It's a command by the Holy Spirit to advise His Church for all ages how God desires His Body to conduct themselves, which Glorifies His Name
.
That was Paul's ministry to present the Bride of Christ as a chaste virgin:

2Co_11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Col_1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Tit 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Plain and simple.

The Lord bless you.....

 

[CalTech]

When you desire something, does that mean it is a command that it will happen or does that mean it is what you would ideally like to see happen?
Is Paul making a universal command in this passage or is he stating his desire for this church and those in this church?
I do not question the inspiration of God to speak to his church in every season. I am asking if this is a command by Paul or a desire of Paul?

It's a command according to God's will for His Church. Paul's "desires" is what God is commanding and expecting through the Power of the Holy Spirit for His Children. A play on word's is not edifying......and that is all I have to say.

Thank you for this discussion.
The Lord bless you....