What part of the word "resemble" do you not understand?
If Melchizedek resembles Christ he is not Christ. If he were Christ it would have said that Melchizedek is not resembles. Unfortunately for your pet theory it does say resembles, so Christ is not Melchizedek.
When something it resembles something else it means it has a similar appearance or quality but not the exact same.
If the Roman Catholic Church is so bad...
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by jay29, Jan 25, 2006.
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
In Christ,
Bob </font>[/QUOTE]But if it includes resurrection, then Moses and Elijah (and I guess Enoch too) were raised before Jesus - which blatantly contradicts Paul's resurrection discourse in I Cor 15, where he talks of Christ's resurrection being the firstfruits and Him being raised first. -
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BrionyGloriana,
The scriptures...get ready to back away, Matt...the scriptures are clear and say different.
"Saint" is a synonym for "christian"...according to Almighty God.
Nothing more, nothing less.
A person becomes a "saint" the instant that they embrace Christ through faith alone, and are sealed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
God bless,
Mike -
Matt Black,
The Holy Spirit.
"When He the Holy Spirit has come, He will guide you into all truth"
Why would you forget about the Holy Spirit?
Maybe because you have a "hierarchial" substitute for Him? One that forbids its people from partaking of one of the Holy Spirits ministries in their lives?
And what a beautiful and important ministry that is.
God bless,
Mike -
Matt Black Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I haven't left the Holy Spirit out. What is plain however is that the SS formula of me+the-Bible+the-Holy-Spirit-in-me doesn't work. If it did, there would be no doctrinal disagreements between us. I agree that the HS is vital; it's just it is obvious that He must work in a different way to "guide us into all truth"...
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Prayer to the dead people are quite common in Oriental religion like Confucianism and shamanism, and necromancer.
Calling Moses is limited to Jesus who is the judge of the living and the dead. -
Did I say " resemble" ? but "clear to be " MelchisedecClick to expand...
Melchizedek is a man who resembles Christ in his priesthood, nothing more, nothing less. You really should try to not read more into a verse then what is actually there.
Why and how King David mention "Thou( Christ) art a Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec(Ps 110:4)?Click to expand... -
Matt,
"I haven't left the Holy Spirit out. What is plain however is that the SS formula of me+the-Bible+the-Holy-Spirit-in-me doesn't work."Click to expand...
It works beautifully. The proof is there for the whole world to see.
2 points...
1) Those on our side of this, in spite of the disagreements(that God told us to expect) are all proclaiming the same God, the same Jesus, the same Holy Spirit, the same gospel, and the same authoritative truth standard(the scriptures)
Regarding the disagreements, these are examples of people who see some aspects of truth working themselves out differently, but to the same end. The reason? Because none of us...and particularly not the blashphemous hierarchy of the Catholic Church...have perfect hearing.
But as we all turn to the same authoritative truth standard, we have a "checks and balances" system in place. As one example, the arminians keep the calvinists from getting too far out of balance, and the calvinists keep the arminians from straying too far out of balance.
This is in contrast to Catholicsm, who have no checks and balances system in place. Hence...error, blashphemy and idolatry has been multiplying exponentially for 1700 years now.
2) You are shooting with no ammunistion in your gun.
If you are going to say that this system doesnt work, you have to provide an alternate system that does work...and you have none.
Lets say that in the evangelical world we have...regarding these non-foundational areas...3% error in group A, 9% error in group b, 6% error in groups C, and 4% error in group D.
Compare that to the groups who claim the be the God protected truth dispenser for the lowly unwashed masses...
Jehovahs Wittness's...false teaching off the charts.
Jim Jones...false teaching off the charts.
Mary Baker Eddys group...false teaching off the charts
Catholicism...blasphemies and idolatrous false teachings off the charts
David Koresh...false teaching off the charts.
An interesting note that I just noticed. What follows all thos groups? DEATH.
JW's? Who knows how many died from refusing blood transfusions.
Jim Jones? They all died.
Mary Baker Eddy? Who knows how many have died from refusing medical attention.
Catholicism? The blood of the saints of God on her hands by the thousands, if not millions.
David Koresh? They all died.
(I just noticed that and threw that in for free. :D Now back to the topic)
"If it did, there would be no doctrinal disagreements between us."Click to expand...
Almighty God...
"Let your brother be fully convinced in his own mind. Who are you to judge anothers servant? To his own master he will stand of fall, and God will make him stand"
"I agree that the HS is vital; it's just it is obvious that He must work in a different way to "guide us into all truth"..."Click to expand...
Jim Jones?
Jehovahs Wittnesses?
Mary Baker Eddy?
Catholicism?
David Koresh?
Mormons?
They all claim to be Gods "Truth Gestapo".
(and they all are "off the charts" regarding false teaching)
No.
Gods way works beautifully. All one has to do is compare it with the hidious alternatives for the proof.
Sadly,
Mike -
Originally posted by Chemnitz:
It's called a messianic prophecy, but once again you fail to provide a scripture that proves Jesus=Melchizedek [/QB]Click to expand...
- no father
- no mother
- no beginning
- no ending
- perpetual priest.
- King of Righteousness
- King of Peace
I have asked you who is Melchisedec? Why can't you answer me?
Where is he gone ?
If he is perpetual priest, where is he serving now ?
If he has no father, is he a bastard ?
Who can be beginningless?
Any human being can have no beginning ?
Any Angel can have no beginning?
Can any human being have neither beginning nor ending?
How can such person be a " Priest" continuously or perpetually? Why does God accept the sacirifice by Melchisedec?
Why does Jesus Christ who is God follow Melchisedec?
Who is King of Righteousness?
Who can be called King of Peace ?
Could you not understand who is that Melchisedec yet?
Can you provide any single clue that Melchisedec would not be Jesus Christ?
If you cannot answer me, please do not follow me. -
Matt Black,
Here is some interesting information regarding your supposed "unity" in the Catholic Church.
Some of these have links imbedded with the statement, but you wont be able to click on them from my post I dont think.
Go to the link at the end if you want to do that...
I have read quite a few comments from Roman Catholic Apologetics regarding the "25,000 groups" of "Protestants", who can’t agree among ourselves. Even though I have attempted to explain to several of my Roman Catholic friends that Baptists and Pentecostals are not Protestants, since we aren’t protesting anything, they insist that we are.
Let’s take a look at the "unity" in the Universal Church of Roman Catholicism. In this morass there are:
1. born-again Catholics who received Jesus as their Saviour in spite of the definition of salvation by the Roman Catholic magisterium. They entrusted their lives to Jesus and trust in Him alone for salvation. These Catholics share many of our basic beliefs in the Scriptures, the Resurrection, the virgin birth of Jesus and the other basic tenets of the Christian faith.
2. There are Catholics still rebelling against Vatican II who ignore the Tridentine prohibition and attend masses said in Latin, e.g. Bishop LaFebvre.
3. We have some rather "liberal" Roman Catholics such as an active nun who held a public office in my state and espoused abortion as a woman’s right in spite of her Church’s official condemnation of abortion. She is not alone in her views. She represents quite a few challenging the belief system of their Church.
4. There are Liberation theologians and their adherents who preach the gospel with an AK-47. For them it isn’t the truth that will make you free but rather the barrel of a gun. Some such adherents are active clerics in the Jesuits and the Maryknoll order. Some assisted the Ortegas in taking over Nicaragua and a couple are even in the Sandanista government as officials. This movement has been warned severely by the present pope several times - to no avail. Maybe he didn’t do it “ex cathedra”.
5. There are very conservative Catholics such as IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (The battle cry of Constantine - In this sign, conquer). These people are on the internet and don’t waste time talking to us as “separated” brethren. They just tell us we are heretics on our way to hell because of their man-made doctrine Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus - Outside the Church (The Roman Catholic Church), there is no salvation. This great doctrine was handed down from the Council of Trent and has never been officially denied or renounced since Vatican II. The IHSV people can barely tolerate this present pope whom they see as leading them into a disastrous ecumenism. (I might agree with that last point myself).
6. In the Keys of this Blood by Malachi Martin (investigative journalist, ex-Jesuit theologian who contributed greatly to Vatican II and a personal confidante of Pope John Paul II), Martin writes regarding the serious concerns that this present pope has about the future of the Roman Catholic Church and the condition of a majority of his bishops who no longer accept as true doctrine the physical Resurrection of Jesus, the infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, the virgin birth of Jesus and the divinity of Jesus. Many of these men hold the views of Hans Kung, a renegade theologian in the Roman Church who actively teaches against these basic beliefs of Christianity.
7. Although I have read how the Roman Catholic Church bitterly denounced William Tyndale as a heretic and murdered him for translating the Bible into the language of the common people, I have never seen a pope excommunicate a member of the Mafia. Nor have I seen the Church of Rome reprimand a well-known psychic whose occult prophecies are reported annually in the yellow journals that populate our food stores. She is a daily communicant of the eucharist in her local parish.
Universal Church??? I don’t think so. I think this is an institution in search of a meaning.
These articles are all written by Roman Catholics
Ecumenism & the United Communities of Spirit Article on Christianity Compromising everything for the sake of unity by The Rev. Thomas A. Baima, S.T.L. Catholic Priest, Director of the Office for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs of the Archdiocese of Chicago, and Trustee of The Council for a Parliament of the World's Religions
"True Roman Catholics" and their writings
101 Heresies of Anti-Pope John Paul II
Baltimore Catechism of 1941 - True Catholic Catechism
Heresies of Vatican II
An Open Letter to Confused Catholics Letter and articles from Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre
The Catholic Origin of Liberation Theology
Catholic Liberation Theology
In the United States, Maryknoll militancy is manifested in their media productions, including films glorifying the Sandinista regime in Nicaragua, and books published by Maryknoll’s Orbis Books. Liberation Theology - preaching the gospel through the barrel of a gun
Roman Catholic Supporters of Abortion Rights
Catholics opposing the "Anti-Church" of Vatican II
With the Great Schism engineered by the Roman Modernist wing of Liberal Protestant heretics, under the auspices of Angelus Joseph Roncalli, there gradually arose various groups in opposition and to defend, preserve and ensure the perpetuation of the True Church. These groups together comprise the Catholic Resistance. The Resistance can be grouped into n broad schools of thought - Cassicanists, Sede-Vacantists, Orthopapists; excluding those who strayed into heresy or who compromised with the Roncallite Antichurch.
The Roman Catholic Faithful
Lay Catholics attempting to rid themselves of perverse and homosexual clergy
The Catholic Counter-Reformation of the 20th Century speaks out against apostasy in their Catholic Church
Papal Rebuke by alleged "Queen of Heaven"Click to expand...
God bless,
Mike -
I have answered your question, you just don't like the truth. Scripture only says that Melchizedek is resembles or is like (no real difference) Christ. "Hebrews 7:3 3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever. " It does not say that he is.
aphomoiow; make like, liken; passive be like, resemble, portray - Friberg
- similar to - Louw-Nida
- be like, similar -UBS
God accepted the sacrifices of the levitical priests until they abused it. So what does acceptance have to do with anything. -
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sorry, old boy, but that is heresy (not the two natures bit, but the denial that Jesus Christ was fully God and fully Man as He walked this earth). You have a poor translation of John 3:13; the Greek is rendered "the Son of Man, who dwells/ whose home is heaven"; it doesn't mean He was there at that instant. My home is three miles to the west of where I am currently typing this (at work); yet I can say now that I live/ have my dwelling/home three miles to the west of where I physically am at this instant. Similarly, Paul in Philippians 3:17-21 talks about our 'citizenship' being 'in Heaven'; that doesn't mean that he or those to whom he was writing where actually in heaven at that moment. [/QB]Click to expand...
That being said, i don't deny Jesus' words when He said He was in heaven at the same time He walked the earth. His Divine nature had no limitations, as opposed to His human nature which He took on in His voluntary state of condescension and humiliation. After His resurrection, Jesus was able to "vanish from sight" (Luke 24:31) and appeared to His disciples though the door was locked (Luke 24:36) His disciples on more than this occasion thought that seeing Jesus, they "saw a spirit" Why is it then too hard for you to believe that the Spirit of God the Son was omnipresent while He was on earth?
"...the Son of Man, who IS in Heaven"
Ray -
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Like I said, the moment someone says that Scripture is 'clear', I start to back away...
[ETA - that was to Eliyahu. Bob, I suppose, then, when Jesus, Peter, James and John met with Elijah and Moses - both long dead - on the Mount of Transfiguration, they were 'consulting the dead' and fell under your ban, then? I'm sure they'd be very grateful for your opinion on the subject]Click to expand...
Mark 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elijah with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus
When they left, Jesus tells His disciples -
Mark 9:9 And as they were coming down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, save when the Son of man should have risen again from the dead.
Notice, not what they heard but what they had seen.
Their appearing was forordained by Deity. They spoke to Deity and not to the men with Jesus who were overwhelmed at the sight and glory of it all.
Ray -
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I'd avoid a 'peeing game' between the churches here, Bob; the Proddy record is scarcely 'whiter than white' on that score...Click to expand...
It is the RCC that was "in her golden age" during mankind's "dark ages" NOT the Protestant church.
It was the RCC that introduced the "inquisition" NOT the Protestants.
It was the RCC that first began burning bibles NOT the protestants.
It was the RCC that introduced purgatory, prayers to the dead, indulgences, Mary sinless like God, Mary Queen of Heaven, Papal infallability -- NOT protestants.
It was the RCC that declared IN HER OWN Canon law - IN her own councils that "Extermination of heretics" was the RULE not the exception and it is the RCC that claims TO THIS DAY that her ruling in that matter was and STILL IS "Infallible". No Protestant church makes that claim for the intollerance of the past!!
The list is almost endless.
The "problem" with the RCC history is in no way mitigated by the "mere existence" of a few decades of intolerance by one or the other Protestant countries.
Glossing over their history "does not promote the Gospel or truth or a correct view of history".
More importantly the many centuries long history of error and persecution manufactured by the RCC is predicted in scripture. This is in fact one of the most important reasons to "pay attention" rather than simply being asleep at the wheel in these last days.
In Christ,
Bob -
Originally posted by Athanasian Creed:
Their appearing was forordained by Deity. They spoke to Deity and not to the men with Jesus who were overwhelmed at the sight and glory of it all.Click to expand...
If we could ignore the Bible in 2Kings 2 and just "pretend that Elijah died no matter what scripture said" and if we could ignore Jude and pretend that "Moses was not assumed bodily into heaven no matter what Jude says regarding the book - the Assumption of Moses" then we would have a problem with the Matt 17 text just as the RCC claims.
But since our practice is NOT to ignore scripture - there is no problem.
In Christ,
Bob -
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Glad you brought up old Jude. Jude quotes from the Assumption of Moses, a Jewish pseudopigraphical text - like the Book of Enoch. However, Deut 34:5-6 and Joshua 1:1-2 say plainly that Moses died. So, you tell me - which is true?Click to expand...Originally posted by BobRyan:
Again your position is incorrect. The idea of "assumption" includes death and resurrection. It simply says that after that - Moses was taken to heaven. Hence the story in the "Assumption of Moses" of Michael and Satan arguing over the dead body of Moses.Click to expand...Originally posted by Matt Black:
But if it includes resurrection, then Moses and Elijah (and I guess Enoch too) were raised before JesusClick to expand...
They never died - they can not be named under the term used in 1Thess 4 "The Dead in Christ".
But you are right about Moses being raised and bodily assumed into heaven before Christ. Many people are recorded as being "raised" before Christ including Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha.
Originally posted by Matt Black:
- which blatantly contradicts Paul's resurrection discourse in I Cor 15, where he talks of Christ's resurrection being the firstfruits and Him being raised first.Click to expand...
The fact that Moses and Elijah were in heaven and came down to speak with Christ in Matt 17 is beyond dispute. The Bible does not portray Moses in Matt 17 as "The dead in Christ" they it describes all saints in 1Thess 4 that have died and were not raised bodily and assumed into heaven. The Bible also never refers to Elijah as "the dead in Christ" nor does it ever say that Enoch Died before God took him "Without seeing death".
The language Paul uses in 1Cor 15 shows that Christ is raised AND THEN at the 2nd coming (at the FIRST resurrection which is the resurrection of the righteous that we see in Rev 20) the "Dead in Christ RISE FIRST". This is true because ata the time Paul is speaking Moses is not among "The Dead in Christ" and of course neither Elijah nor Enoch ever did die.
This means that we are safe to OBEY the voice of God in Isaiah 8 telling us not to join with the pagans in "praying to the dead" not even "the DEAD in Christ"!!
This means we are safe to trust the voice of God separate ourselves from pagan practices.
Practices that even the Catholic Digest admits to having links to paganism!
In Christ,
Bob -
Pagan prayer methods.
Catholic Digest 12/1994 pg 129
“The Rosary is, unsurprisingly, Not mentioned in the Bible. Legend and history place its beginning in the 13th century long After the Bible was completed. As a Pagan practice, praying on counting beads goes back centuries before Christ…
Buddhists use prayer wheels and prayer beads for the same purpose… Counting prayer beads is common practice in religious cultures”.
Click to expand...Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.
There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”
Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!
The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!Click to expand...
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