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Featured If we are ever spiritually dead we would be dead indeed

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MB, Oct 31, 2019.

  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    With out the spirit to quicken our flesh the flesh would die.
    Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Is the flesh also dead in this verse below?
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    How is it we can be literally dead to sin and still be alive unless the term "dead" is used to represent something else other than being actually dead.
    If the body is dead so is the spirit of man and if the spirit is dead so is the flesh of the man
    MB
     
  2. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual death is not a ceasing to exist.
     
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  3. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Are we then in limbo somewhere? can we exist with a dead spirit?.
    MB
     
  4. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Yes
     
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Please explain Why James said:
    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    I understand that death is a separation. Wouldn't you say this seems to be a contradiction?

    MB
     
  6. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    How is physical death related to spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org

    "Question: "How is physical death related to spiritual death?"

    Answer:
    The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. When understood in that way, the two concepts are very closely related, and both physical death and spiritual death are reflected in the very first references to death."


    Go the link above to read the complete article.
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    When Calvinist say man before Christ is spiritually dead he describes it as inanimate unable to do anything. However separation from God is not inanimate The Calvinist claims this is the reason man is disabled from coming to God.
    The Jews in part were blinded and as far as the Gentiles these will hear Acts 28:28. In fact Salvation it's self has been sent to the Gentiles. In my view there is no inability. Inability is false.
    MB
     
  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I'm not always sure what other "Calvinists" say, but I would not characterize spiritual death as anything other than dead towards God, in our affections and worship...
    That which He rightfully deserves from His creation, mankind, is denied to Him because of our willful and stubborn rebelliousness.

    So, to me the charge of "dead, unable to do anything" is answered and clarified by "dead, unable and unwilling to be reconciled to God ( John 3:19-20 ) and unable to do anything that the Lord finds genuinely good ( Jeremiah 13:23, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) ".

    All of our attempts at righteousness are as filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6 ).
    There is none good but God ( Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19 ).

    When I see those ( and many more ), it causes me to re-evaluate what I would be if God had not saved me.

    Once these Scriptural truths were drilled down into my understanding from years of careful study of His word, it gave me a very clear picture of why God needed to change my "heart" ( the seat of my affections and desires ) in order to have an eternal relationship me.
    Again, I don't really know what other "Calvinists" teach, as I make it a point not to read anything outside of God's word, for the most part.

    I do know that God's word tells us that no man can come to Jesus, unless the Father draws them ( John 6:44 ).
    Looking at the very words and letting them sink in a bit, I see that Jesus is saying that no man CAN come.

    That's all I need to know, and all I really should be trusting in...


    God's perspective about me and what my condition was before He made me a new creature in Christ ( Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Corinthians 5:17 ).
     
    #8 Dave Gilbert, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  9. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    If God loves everyone ( as so many here seem to believe ), why would He blind the Jews to salvation ( John 12:37-41 ) through Jesus Christ, their Messiah?

    In addition, why will the Gentiles hear?
    Is it that they are somehow better?

    No, MB...none are righteous and not one of us seeks God ( Romans 3:10-12, Psalms 10:4 ) in and of ourselves.
    You are of course, free to believe that.
    One thing I'd like you to think about, however...even those that teach "Prevenient Grace" for all men admit that outside of God's intervention, none would seek Him.

    But "Total Inability" isn't just some made-up term without a foundation in Scriptural truth...
    It's a doctrinal teaching that is derived from careful examination of every word of Christ, and every word of His apostles regarding the spiritual condition of man, prior to the new birth.

    Again:

    " No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ).
    " And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:65 ).


    May His grace be upon you, sir.
     
    #9 Dave Gilbert, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  10. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    MB, the title of this post is: If we are ever spiritually dead we would be dead indeed

    My question to you is: Have you ever been spiritually dead?
     
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  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    If your asking if I have ever been literally dead the answer is no. If you are asking if I have ever been separated from God because of sin the answer would be yes. I do not believe I have ever been unable to understand the gospel. I've felt the drawing to Christ since I was old enough to read and understand what I read. I've been taught the Bible since I was just a toddler.
    I believe it is possible to be convinced the gospel is correct and still reject it. Which is why I was 14 before I accepted Christ.
    MB
     
  12. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    In the early 70s while driving to work one morning I was listening to J. Vernon McGee's broadcast. He explained the three types of death mentioned in the Bible.

    Spiritual death occurred as a result of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve. Rather than continuing the relationship with God by strolling in the garden, when God sought Adam for fellowship, Adam hide from God. Spiritual separation of the soul of man from the presence of God.

    Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.

    Eternal death is the separation of the soul from God for eternity.

    The remedy for death is a proper relationship with God, the giver of life.

    When we, who were dead in trespasses and sin, are born again by the power of the Holy Spirit, our spiritual relationship with God is restored.

    When we die physically, our soul is in paradise.

    We thereby have eternal life.

    This explanation by McGee had a amazing effect on my ability to understand scripture.

    God is good! May He bless you as you study His word.
     
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    McGee was an excellent preacher I still listen to him on You Tube from time to time. I agree about spiritual death and eternal death. This is why I disagree that Spiritual death while the flesh is still alive is impossible. I believe Paul used the term spiritual death as a metaphor. Because James says the body cannot live with out the spirit.If the body can not live with out the spirit then man can not be spiritually dead in reality
    Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also..
    MB
     
  14. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Who here has described any such thing?
     
  15. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    What does this prove?

    Also, if we are not spiritually dead, why do we need to be made alive in Christ?
     
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  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You'd have to show the scripture you are talking about. There is nothing in the KJV that makes such statement. Except at the resurrection though this is for the dead
     
  17. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Active Member
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    Please consider the following.

    [Eph 2:1-5 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    [Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;




    What is spiritual death? | GotQuestions.org

    “Question: "What is spiritual death?"

    Answer:
    Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.”
     
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  18. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Two things:

    1. The KJV is not the end all be all.
    2. The verse is Ephesians 2:5. Also Col. 2:12-13,

    This is why the KJV is outdated. You think that it doesn't say "Made alive with Christ." you are correct. In the KJV it says "quickened" and I bet you did not know that word means, "to give or restore life to."

    This just is a proven point that people need an updated translation because many people do not know/understand the old English and they do not take the time to look it up and understand it.
     
  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    The KJV is the most accurate and again you don't know what you are talking about That is bull I have a 10 year old great grandson who knows what it is saying He reads and understands it with out a problem. The reason you don't like it is because it is accurate truth. The KJV is the best translation out there and has brought more to Christ than any other translation. In fact more than all of the new age bibles put together. I don't know where you went to school but you certainly didn't absorb any great knowledge there. You didn't show where scripture says we need to be made alive.
    You lost another argument.
    MB
     
  20. davidtaylorjr

    davidtaylorjr Well-Known Member

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    Um, you ignored 90% of my post and went off on a diatribe about the KJV. I would suggest you read my post again because I did, in fact, show were we are made alive in Christ. You simply ignored it.
     
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