Featured If you receive the mark of the beast, you will lose eternal life

Amen! :applause: Now we are getting somewhere!

First mistake is going by opinion. The scripture is emphatically clear that the born of God are those who hear Jesus voice and follow Him (John 10)

Absolutely! This is where understanding what it means to be born of God comes in. Only those born of God will follow Jesus. Following Jesus is the result of having received the Spirit of Christ/Holy Spirit, the rebirth. God removes the stoney heart of flesh and replaces it with a new heart, a heart devoted to following Jesus. This does not look perfect, each new born again Christian will be at their own stage of sanctification. I know fifth graders who are mature beyond some 30 year olds. We see maturity levels played out even on this board, we have some who believe they are brilliant minds and know all doctrine, yet they have not charity and fall very short of maturity in Christ.

This is a fine example of a babe in need of milk. Until the understanding is sought of just what it means to be born of God, error in gospel doctrine will rule over you. If you want to add works to grace then as Paul said, it is no more grace, and you will fit in fine with the Mormon church, they would love you there.

 

ROmans 11 is talking about the nation of Israel you are taking this out of context, 1 Cor 11 is talking about being disqualified from recieving heavenly rewards.

 

Not according to the Bible. Pretrib rapturists believe in just that: a pre-tribulation rapture. In other words, something that happens during the tribulation happens AFTER the rapture.

 

Are you serious?? Romans 11 is specifically to the Gentiles - so how does "[FONT=&quot]I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.[/FONT]" get spin-doctored into "ROmans 11 is talking about the nation of Israel" .

How does "[FONT=&quot]move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.[/FONT]" get spun into "the entire nation"?? As if "Some of them" being saved is "the entire nation saved as a group"??? Paul says "restore them again" about the"some of them" he is trying to save.



[FONT=&quot] Rom 11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them. [/FONT]

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


====================

OSAS does not survive Romans 11 once we admit that those who were cut off are lost and that "you who stand by your faith" are "saved" because you cannot warn the saved about becoming lost the way Paul does here in Romans 11 -- if you choose the tradition of OSAS over the Bible.

Because "Bible details matter".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Anyone can easily see what the topic is by reading the first seven verses. The Gentiles are a by-product of the real subject and that is God's faithfulness to the nation of Israel. The Gentiles are secondary and merely a benefactor of the primary subject which is God's purpose for the nation of Israel.

 

Bob, he is correct, Romans 11 is speaking of nations (Jew vs. Gentile) and not individuals.

In the book of Acts, Paul repeatedly told Jews that because they would not hear the gospel, that he would go to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 11, he had always gone to the Jews first wherever he traveled. But because they would not hear they were being cut off. Now Paul would go to the Gentiles only.

And this is what Paul is warning of when he says the Gentiles "stood by faith". Because the Gentiles believed, they continued to receive God's grace. If they likewise began to turn away in unbelief, they would also be cut off.

And this is exactly what is going to happen, the fulness of the Gentiles will come, there will come a point when the Gentiles also refuse to hear, and then God will return to the Jews and they will be saved.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

You see, Paul is not speaking of individuals here, but the Jews as a whole.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Again, Paul is speaking of both the Jews and Gentiles as a whole here, not individuals.

That the Gentiles will also turn from God and that God will return to the Jews is shown.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So, this chapter is contrasting the Jews versus the Gentiles, it is not speaking of individual salvation. Paul is warning these Gentiles if they turn away from God in unbelief as the Jews did, they will also be cut off from hearing the gospel.

In fact, that is exactly what is going to happen, and once again the gospel will be preached to the Jews and they will be saved.

 

That is true - they do believe that.

By contrast Matt 24 says "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

in Christ,

Bob

 

Are you serious?? Romans 11 is specifically to the Gentiles - so how does "[FONT=&quot]I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.[/FONT]" get spin-doctored into "ROmans 11 is talking about the nation of Israel" .

Unit you get to vs 13 where Paul states his subject explicitly - speaking directly to the GENTILES in the very part of the chapter the OSAS guys find to be most inconvenient.

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
.

===================

The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

 

Not if we are to believe Paul in his statement " [FONT=&quot]How does "move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them." get spun into "the entire nation"?
[/FONT]

Paul says "restore them again" about the"some of them" he is trying to save.

Indeed - but the work of salvation is "personal" it is individual "to has many as received him to THEM He gave the right to be called the sons of God".

"I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hear my voice AND open the door I WILL come in".

Thus Paul would love the entire nation to saved... but individual salvation is the subject "save some of them" and the basis of that hope is stated as "For He is able to graft them in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

Personal salvation is the basis for all of it. Never is a nation saved 'as a group" in all of scripture.

And the same goes for "you who are gentiles" - the pagan nations were not saved and grafted in with the believing Jews. Rather gentile individuals.

"[FONT=&quot]you, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of "

Paul does not say "if enough gentiles in the pagan idol worshipping nations start behaving as if they do not believe the Gospel - then they too will have some who are lost and some who are saved like the Jewish nation does today".

I think we can all see that.

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

 

Yes, but in the overall context he is speaking of the Jews as a nation or people in chapter 11.

And when Paul warns the Gentiles that they "standest by faith" he is warning them that if they likewise turn away from God in unbelief that they will likewise be cut off.

Then Paul explains that is exactly what is going to happen. At some point in time the "fullness of the Gentiles" will be come in. They will generally cease to listen and hear the Lord as the Jews did in time past. At this time God will turn again to the Jews and they will be saved.

That is the context of this chapter. It is because you are trying to read individual salvation into the text that you are misinterpreting vs. 21;

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

There is nothing in the above that indicates that any true believer will ever worship the beast. Furthermore, using Scripture from a book written mostly in apocalyptic or symbolic language to refute the clear teaching of Jesus Christ regarding the Security of the Believer is nonsensical.

Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Now if you folks want to believe that the beast, the false prophet, or Satan are sovereign over God then have at it! And you are of all people to be pitied!

 

He begins Romans 11 speak of the Jews in the third person - speaking to Gentiles about the Jews.

But in vs 13 he speaks to the gentiles about the gentiles and how they fit in to that SAME tree where the Jews are.

===============

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
.

===================

The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

==============

Which is a huge problem for OSAS once we admit that the Jews that are cut off - are actually lost.

Because then you have Paul warning the saved individual that they are in danger of being lost, cut off, as the lost jews, if they do not choose to "fear" and to "persevere'.

Obviously Paul is not speaking to a gentile Hindu nation telling them they are in some pristine privileged lost state that is not to be frittered away.


In Romans 11 :25-27 Paul makes the case he started in Romans 2 and emphasized in Romans 9 that both the saved Gentiles AND the saved Jews are considered "Israel".


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them

 

You hang your hat on this argument which is before the above stated passage:

Verses 25 and 26 destroy your argument.
First your "argument" is only a strongly worded warning to live a holy life. There is no threat of losing one's salvation. There is not one verse in the Bible that teaches that; not here, not anywhere. You badly misconstrue the Scriptures to get that out of here. (It is habitual with you).

Second verse 25 speaks about the mystery--the time of the fulness of the Gentiles--the time when all Israel shall be saved. When is that time? It is just after the Tribulation when Christ comes to deliver the Jews from their enemies, and "so all Israel shall be saved," and enter the Millennial Kingdom.

Look at what you quoted in verse 26. Obviously if he is turning away "the ungodly" it is not the righteous. The righteous are eternally secure with Christ. They always have been.

 

You would do well to consider the following Scripture from the Book of Revelation before insisting that God cannot keep those for whom Jesus Christ died, those whom He has adopted as sons!

Revelation 13:8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Notice that those who have been saved, whose names are written in the Book of Life, do not worship the beast!

Revelation 17:8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Only those whose names were not written in the Book of Life shall wonder at or worship the beast.

Your denial of the Security of the Believer is unBiblical nonsense, a false doctrine out of the mind of man.

 

Yes, but those Jews were NEVER SAVED as they rejected Christ and so the position is not one of personal salvation. The POSITION is one of special privilege that was formerly restricted to Israel AS A PEOPLE because of the covenant promises given the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). Now the Gentiles, AS A PEOPLE are given those privileges.

More clear evidence you are in error is the fact that the SAME BRANCHES broken off may be grafted in "again." That does not mean they were saved, then lost and resaved again but that is the nonsense your intepretation demands.

Besides Jesus repudiates your doctrine thoroughly in John 6:37-39; 17:2. NONE of the "ALL" given to Christ fail to come (Jn. 6:37) for eternal life (Jn. 17:2)and "OF ALL" given NONE ARE LOST (Jn. 6:39). Closed case! If "ALL" given do in fact "ALL" come and "OF ALL" given NOTHING IS LOST then that is OSAS in the clearest terms possible.

In Romans 11, just as Israel as a people could be cut off and yet NONE OF THE SAVED WERE CUT OFF as the saved are identified by another name "the remnant" and are the "election of grace." They were NEVER CUT OFF and neither are the saved among the Gentiles but the Gentiles AS A PEOPLE will be cut off in Romans 11:25 when the "fullness of the gentile" remant is saved and then God will regraft Israel as a people back into the Olive Tree or the POSITION OF PRIVILEGE.

 

Those saved by God, are kept by God, so that they will choose not to receive that Mark, as they will be kept by Him to NOT do that! the elect will not be deceived, but those to be lost will all follow after that Beast!

 

The Body of Christt on earth will have raptured out by that time, and those still to get saved by grace of God will be kept and preserved by Him, as ONLY thsoe whose names were not written in book of life will accept the beast!

For God will send a strong delusion upon the earth, and ALL not in bool of life will bow to the Beast!

 

He begins Romans 11 speak of the Jews in the third person - speaking to Gentiles about the Jews.

But in vs 13 he speaks to the gentiles about the gentiles and how they fit in to that SAME tree where the Jews are.

===============

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
.

===================

The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

1. Your argument is "lost and loster" not a bible teaching at all.

2. You are responding to my point about vs 13 and the fact that Paul says HE is speaking to Gentiles (hint: Not lost Jews)-- so trying to munge the entire chapter as a message about lost Jews that were never said fails at the start.

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

3. In vs 17 we saved gentiles and saved Jews grafted in together. In vs 14 we have the focus of the Gospel to save individuals not an entire nation "and save some of them". Paul is not making the point that a literal nation is all saved or all lost.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,


4. But back to your focus on "only lost Jews that were never saved" - even in that OSAS edit of the text - you are stuck because once you admit that the Jews who were removed and cast out - are in fact lost - you have the OSAS-denying Bible point that the SAVED "you stand by your faith" are being warned about that very same lost condition being applied to them if they do not persevere.

Which of course - is the whole point of bringing up Romans 11.

Back to your lost- and lost-less myth. In the case of those "grafted in again" it is said that this happens when they no longer endure in their "unbelief" so then - this would be the saved-by-grace-through-faith change. And if they as a saved person are "grafted in again" because they are now saved, and are now joined to the group of saved Gentiles and saved Jews of vs

In Romans 11 "some of them" -- that are lost will come to Christ "as individuals which is how all salvation works".

In Romans 11 the saved gentiles AND the saved Jews are being grafted into the same tree as "fellow partakers" in salvation.

In Romans 11 the lost are described as those Jews that were removed.

In Romans 11 the "you who stand by your faith" are warned that they will be cut off as well if they do not persevere.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Which is where the tradition of OSAS meets its end.

in Christ,

Bob