Many claim that illness comes from the fall. Why? What scripture reference is there about this?
Illness
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Judith, May 20, 2013.
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Is illness a sign of things being good? Is it the design God had from the beginning? Realize that illness comes from corruption in the body - not from perfection.
So yes, I'd say that illness is a result of the fall. -
To look forward to the time with the lion will lie again down with the lamb. Man's fall brought death, even to animals, when He sacrificed them to clothe Adam and Eve's naked bodies. -
Also, we know from Job that it was Satan that brought about Job's sickness (Job 2:7). -
We also know that sickness can come from sin (James 5:14-15).
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Now Job we do know that satan caused his illness. So now my question. Does this mean all disease comes from satan? -
(2) "Disease" is a broad term that encorporates many aspects that diminish lifespans and brings about death of individuals. In the broadest sense there are only 4 ways to die. Accident, disease, suicide, and life taken by another. Of the 4, 3 are pretty clear cut and dried. The 4th, disease, is a catch all term for means of death that aren't included in the other 3.
a. Death from gluttony, whether food or strong spirits is a one type of "disease". Isn't it pretty obvious that sin is root cause of someone dying by "drinking themselves to death"? Yet, we say they physically died from liver disease.
b. With the fall, man became capable of killing. So did animals. So did plants. There is no mention of anything actually dying until Satan's "Hath God said?" tested man's free will to choose. Why does it matter whether poision mushrooms, e-coli, and black widow spiders existed before the fall? With the fall, they became capable of killing, just as mankind did. Just as lions became capable of killing lambs and wilderbeasts.
c. e-coli used in b. is representative of what we call "diseases" when people sicken and die from exposure to yeast/fungi, bacteria, and virus. Mushrooms, spiders, and some microscopic life produce toxins that create "diseased" bodies that die. Here, we're getting into the mechanics of how causitive agents bring death to flesh. ie diseases not rooted in sin of point a.
d. The Bible doesn't mention specifically the diseases brought about through wear and tear on aging bodies, as the relate directly to the fall of man. Hearts, lungs, kidney's, brains, grow too weak & tired to function anymore. Here, we can also lump in genetic mutations that also shorten life. The latter is progressive. The more generations man becomes removed from Adam (created without defect) the more genetic based diseases grow.
Those are just 4 classifications of "disease". It doesn't matter, if the agents were present before the fall. The fall ACTIVATED them. For example, all broad types of bacteria may have existed before the fall. The capability for some of them to kill was unleashed as a result of Adam's failure to obey God. Other types of bacteria remained good and beneficial to mankind. -- Another example of both good and evil existing in this world.
Bringing this long winded post to a close. It doesn't matter whether e-coli were part of the creation of Eden or created by God after an apple was eaten. If they were present, the original sin, affected them, too. They became capable of killing, just as Cain became capable of killing his brother. -
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In regards to sickness I think what happened is this. We know that the creation was called very good. We also know everything that would ever be created was created in those 6 literal days. I believe that bacteria that could possibly kill was also created. However because they (the Adam's family) were eating plants, the plants had medicinal properties that possibly protected them from what would normally make sick or kill.
After the fall they were booted out of the garden and no longer had access to those healing properties, but because their bodies had already built up certain immunities they lived long periods of time and passed those qualities onto many of their children until the flood when everything was wiped out leaving men even more vulnerable to disease.
I do not believe in the creation that physical death was impossible as I do not believe they were created super men. I believe it just did not happen until after the fall. -
Please provide scriptual support for your premise, as stated. Depending on how you elect to support your position, scriptual rebuttal may be awaiting your reply. -
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Let me clear up a little misconception.
There WAS pain before the fall.
Pain can be put on a gradient – there are different levels of it.
Pain teaches us to avoid harmful circumstances. Without pain you might cut or burn yourself and never know it… it's presence is protective.
In Genesis (3:16) God said that Eve's pain in childbirth would be multiplied / increased.
Before the fall there would have been pain with childbirth, just not as much as afterwards.
Judith, you ask for some verses, There's been some good posts so far.
I'll give you a few thoughts and a couple verses.
The Hebrew word for sickness is closely related to the word used for weakness – in many instances it's meaning can only differentiated by its context. In some places the translation "sick" or "weak" can be interchanged without effecting the meaning of the passage (see its first use describing Jacob in Genesis 48:1).
He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; [Or sickness] and as one from whom men hide their faces, he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he has borne our griefs [Or sicknesess] and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. Isaiah 53:3–4 (ESV with note)
..."If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and do that which is right in his eyes, and give ear to his commandments and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you that I put on the Egyptians, for I am the LORD, your healer.” Exodus 15:26
You shall serve the LORD your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. Exodus 23:25
[also see Ex 23:25ff; Deut. 7:12ff; 28:58ff;
Rob -
Further, to make your point, you are speculating and misapplying the events of the fall, as recorded. The fall was a single event. Satan tempted. Eve and Adam yielded to temptation. Where do the scriptures say that Eve lied?
Genesis 3: KJB
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Murder is a sin. According to scripture, the first sin comitted by mankind, was when Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating forbidden fruit.
Next, Adam was created in God's image. To this layman, that means that Adam was created without physical defect that could bring about an end to his life. Remember, your opening post was about illness. Yet, to try to make your point, you are bringing in accidents and murder, even though to my knowledge neither of these are recorded as having taken place before the fall.
Gen 3: KIB
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
You've ignored my previous point. Plants can kill. Example was mushrooms. Adam and Eve could partake of all of the plants in Eden, with one exception. Whether mushrooms, bacteria, virus, spiders, etc. were created before or after the fall, there is no indication in scriptures, that any of these could harm mankind before the fall from His grace. All God created was good. Therefore, there was no need for "medicinal properties" as there was nothing to make them "sick or kill". To say otherwise is adding to the scriptures.
-- The first evidence of physical death of any flesh, for any reason, comes here.
Gen 3: KJB
21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God, Himself, brought about the first death, the first sacrifice in His creation, as a result of man using his free will to sin. God, Himself, made the final sacrifice -- shedding of blood -- to atone for the original sin.
Continue to read Genesis. Note the long lives of the decendents of Adam and Eve. In chapter 6, you'll find this verse.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
God changed the number of years that man lives. Thus, the theory of plants in Eden being the cause of long lives, also fails at this point.
Your OP was about illness - disease. First post:
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Scripture is often bent into what we want to see or what fits our theological model.
Adam's instructions appear to have been given before Eve's formation.
Did Adam, as many parents will do to their children, tell Eve "Don't eat, yeah, don't even touch that tree."
Perhaps Eve was only relaying the instructions given to her.
Rob -