Individual Election

So you promote individual election, great!

 

Keep falling on your crutch...

 

Very interesting. I'd like to spend more time on this myself.
But you'd agree that "(my) faith (proceeding out) of Christ" and "Christ's faith" have very different connotations, right?

 

Completely in agreement. I too see reprobation in Scriptures. What I don't see is predestined reprobation. On the contrary, such a hardening always follows such a person filling up their measure of sins (Matt 23:32, Gen 15:16) - but predestination is before any person's good or evil.

 

Not rewrites but capturing entire truths. Your sentences could be extended further...
1. God loves humanity...until man fills up his measure of sins at which point God turns in His wrath against Him. God also shows mercy to all humanity...until He takes it away from some while promising for His mercy never to depart with others (2Sam 7:15).

2. Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all...His blood covering their sins contingent upon their enduring faith in Him. Some see their faith fall away while the children of God are promised never to fall.

3. We are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth...God working in His children, causing them to walk in His ways and will and do according to His pleasure, noting without faith it's impossible to please Him.

 

Why is the "creation-beginning" interpretation hogwash and how exactly did you arrive at your interpretation? Matt 19:4, 19:8, Mark 13:19, John 8:44 - how do you determine when this 'beginning' is from? I'd actually say John 6 describes the beginning to just be the beginning of that conversation even.

 

Duh

 

Note the flow of mindless smear, devoid of content.

 

So you are saying God loves us until we sin? What absurd nonsense, God demonstrated His love for us while we were yet sinners!
And you seem to claim once in Christ, Christ will throw you out. Not how John 6:37 reads.
And you seem to claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 means God did not choose individuals for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth.

Bottom line: God loves humanity, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and our individual election is by reason of God crediting our faith as righteousness.

 

Selectively referencing verses where the context indicates a reference to creation carries no weigh.

Luke 1:2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word,
Here the idea is from the beginning of the physical life of Christ, including His mother Mary.

John 6:64
“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
Here the idea is from the beginning of His earthly relationship with them.

John 15:27 and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
Here Jesus is speaking to His disciples, thus from the beginning of His public ministry.

Act 26:4 “So then, all Jews know my manner of life from my youth up, which from the beginning was spent among my own nation and at Jerusalem;
Here the reference is to the beginning of Paul's life.

2Thessalonians 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Here the action taken "from the beginning" is individual election through or by reason of faith in the truth. To push the meaning back before His death is untenable, for our faith includes His sacrifice for our sins.

 

We have noted you do that.

 

Is that word-for-word what I'd written? God loves all through a multitude of sins until a measure of sin is filled up (Gen 15:16, Matt 23:32) at which point God turns in His wrath to harden and destroy them. He calls for repentance and desires them to be saved from destruction until they reject Him themselves and fill up their measure of sin, at which point they are fitted for destruction. Are you saying God loves sinners at the time He destroys them?

Agreed on Jn 6:37. And no, I'm not claiming that those in Christ are lost - but there is the scenario where some believe for a while, having been washed and receiving the knowledge of the truth but then later fall away returning to the mud - I don't see these as born again in Christ but the faith is open to them nonetheless through God's initial grace. A clear example would be God's initial supernatural work in King Saul who later has God's mercy depart from him.

"through" - yes. "by reason of" - no.
Just as sanctification of the Spirit is a work of God, one's believing the truth too is likewise a work of God in the Christian. If your theology doesn't permit God to cause man to do according to His pleasure, then that's a contradiction you'd probably have to reconcile - fits perfectly consistently within my doctrinal system.

 

I understand why it's untenable in your belief system - again, that's not a contradiction in mine since the Christian's choosing can be determined way before any man is born or done any good or evil given that I see God capable of causing one to believe in the truth at any time of His choosing. I also grant that faith is kept open to any and all but the elect are reserved to be worked in by God perfectly. You'd have to show me evidence from Scriptures that proves God cannot cause His children of promise to walk in His ways for me to alter my beliefs.

 

IMHO, all these posts, both pro & con this issue, are just attempts by mortal & finite folks that all of us (without exception!) are to grasp the truths of an infinite Creator God. IMHO, all these posts (without exception!), both pro and con, will NEVER solve anyone's ill-fated attempts to grasp what sin-cured & finite men that we all (without exception!) are! Why don't we all (without exception!) just relax & instead marvel at the reality that an infinite and sinless Creator God loved sinful & finite people that all of us (without exception!) are? John 3:16-17 states this fact! After all, Jesus Christ paid a debt He didn't owe for all of us, sinners who owed a debt we couldn't pay!

 

Amen. And I'd agree. The problem arises when not everyone agrees with your universal without-exception post. For one would say God doesn't love all sinful and finite people and another would say Christ did not pay the debt for all of us. And that's how you end up discussing Scriptures to grasp at these very truths first. At least these forums spell out the agenda pretty well :).

I see the defense of the Gospel even in the NT epistles through thorough arguments and other references from Scriptures - I don't really begrudge this as means to explaining one's faith and challenging falsehood. As long as the intent is not to be simply right over another but to love each other enough to want to discuss only so that truth is established and all are benefited in Christ, this could even be blessed by God. I have actually learnt some valuable truths just discussing with others on these forums - so it's not entirely futile.

 

Now he doubles down, another smear anothe post devoid of content. This is all Calvinism is, twaddle from T to I.

 

You should know my view rests on specific references to scripture which clearly indicate your statement is false. No need to make up another falsehood and ask if it reflects scripture.

Please do not use the Old Covenant to demonstrate how the New Covenant works. If God credits your faith as righteousness, He places you (gives you) in Christ and you are saved forever. You can believe till the cows come home, if God does not credit it, it does not result in the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ, justification, or eternal life.

Through (en used to show instrumentality) means by reason of. Denial carries no weight.
If your copy and paste theology does not permit God to require our own faith in His own Son, it is your theology that denies God's word.

 

Right, you create individuals in the mind of God before God created them without a shred of evidence.
The idea of objective bible study is to base belief on what scripture says God does, and not on the inventions of men supported by with God anything is possible. It is an absurd view!!

 

From the very beginning, the created beings as we all are, man has always, though ineffectively, attempted to grasp what his Eternal and Sovereign Creator God has chosen to keep secret to only Himself! "Their worship is a farce; for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God." (Matthew 15:9).