Since Paul's advice came in an inspired letter without any qualification, we should be very reluctant to say it was wrong. Especially when we know mixing a little wine into the water was good advice. I'm sure they had hardier immune systems in those days, but drinking "pure" water can't have been very healthy.
Is alcohol a sin?
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Alexandra Spears, Jul 15, 2003.
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Just one thing to remember: Jesus has not yet risen, when he was at the wedding feast, and at the last supper. So, technically, He lived in the Old Testament.
That being the case, if what some of you said is true and He served and made alcoholic wine, then Jesus would have been in direct violation of His Word! Habakkuk 2:15 (just for 1 verse, but isn't that all it takes)
We have to interpret Scripture in God's Holiness, not with our feelings, desires, or heart!
Also, the Bible never said Jesus drank alcoholic wine.
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IfbReformer: One thing to add to your excellent post regarding the temperance movement. It also took off as an attempt to 'Americanize' primarily Catholic immigrants who were used to wine and beer. Temperance reflected nativism and was one of its tools.
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Please explain Habakkuk 2:15!
Then, please explain the 40 some other verses in Scripture that have a negative conotation to them about alcohol. And in most cases, some very wicked things happened.
Like John the Baptist, lost his head over alcohol.
Noah's son had a bad experience, because of alcohol.
But, a lot of you want to key in on a few verses which seem to indicate that alcoholic beverages are OK for consumption, when as a matter of fact, they are mostly mentioned for medical reasons.
Then we can get into the word games about fermentation/spoiling and Holiness/Sinless
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I was brought up in an alcoholic home (both parents). Before I was saved I 'preached' on the evils of alcohol, when I was saved I thought, "Great, even God agrees with me". That was before I studied what the Bible actually says. I have to say that I beleive that drinking alcohol is not a sin. The Bible warns about the abuse and a wise person will take heed, but trying to make out the Bible says something other than what it does is silly, it degrades the Word. I have read 10 page articles 'explaining' what God actually meant when He used the word wine. God's Word does not need that sort of 'explaining'. I personally do not drink alcohol because of my life experience and the warnings from God's word. I can share this with others without having to change God's Word to 'fit' my thoughts on the matter.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
Kind regards to all,
Alegra -
Justified said:
Please explain Habakkuk 2:15!
Just that first part of the verse (the only part you want us to care about)?
Or the whole verse?
Or the whole verse in context of the entire book? -
I would be happy to help explain Habakkuk 2:15 for you:
"15"Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors,
pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies."
Habakkuk 2:15(NIV)
It is clear from the verse that giving his neighbor a drink is not the sin, but doing it with the intent to get him drunk so that he can see his neighbor's nakedness.
Hope that clears that up for you.
As to your statement:
"Then, please explain the 40 some other verses in Scripture that have a negative conotation to them about alcohol."
Show us one of the 40 verse that say alchohal itself - the substance itself is sinful. Only the abuse of it. I guarentee you that everyone of the the 40 verses you show either within the verse itself or the verses around it would show that is is talking about the abuse of alchohal - not the actual substance itself.
I could should hundreds of verse condeming the abuse of sex, and sex outside of marriage, but that does not make sex wrong does it?
As to your statement:
"Like John the Baptist, lost his head over alcohol.
Noah's son had a bad experience, because of alcohol."
Once again, John the Baptist did not loose his head over alchohal, he lost his head over the abuse of alchohal - drunkeness.
Noah's son had a bad experiance, not because of alchohal, but because of Noah's abuse of alchohal - drunkeness.
I hope this clears things up for you.
So to sum it concisely:
The Bible never says to consume alchohal itself is a sin, it never even says that we may only consume alchohal for medical purposes. It condemns the abuse of alchohal(drunkeness), just like it condemns the abuse of many other things.
Thanks
IFBReformer -
So again, excellent post! I hear ya.
Tauf
P.S. Those who selectively cite just that part of a verse in Habakkuk (e.g., to deny that Jesus turned water into wine at Cana or served wine at the Last Supper), without quoting the rest of the verse that indicates the sin in the serving was that it was done to have one's way with the drinker, are on as solid scriptural ground as the church I attended that cited part of a verse in Amos to condemn all use of musical instruments. -
The first miracle was turning the water into wine. As I have asked someone else: when did the Hebrew tradition of drinking wine at a wedding change from "grape juice" to wine? Additionally, during what time period did the Hebrew tradition of serving "grape juice" at Passover change to wine? Just like others on this discussion, you have pointed out that the Bible SPECIFICALLY mandates that the abuse of alcohol is a sin. How did you come to the conclusion that any consumption (moderation or otherwise) is a sin?
Using your logic, the Apostle Paul was under the Old Testament as well. Are you saying that his instruction to Timothy is heresy?
And remember: I don't drink....... -
And remember: I don't drink....... [/QB][/QUOTE]
This saying I posted, is in refrence to hermineutics of the study of Scripture. You NEVER interprit Scripture with your personal feelings, desires, or your heart.
You need to use all of Scripture to bring out God's Will and Holiness, as to our lives. And you don't use the abscure to base doctrine and dogmas on.[or you're no better then the cults]
Now, going back to the bulk of Scripture that deal with achoholic beverages, most of them are in the negative not the positive, about its use.
The reason I mentioned the two examples, is that one was a man of God, and one was a heathen.[I hope that you know which one was which]
And as a side note. I was raised in a tavern, and saw both the abuse and moderate drinking in society, and have found not one benefit to those who partake of such endeavors. Pretty close to 100% failures in marriages and families, including mine and my relatives and friends.
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Remember: Passover is in the first part of the month. The harvest would have been several months prior to this. Without refrigeration and pasteurization, the wine used at Passover would have undoubtedly been alcoholic. That being said, I would note that I believe Jesus took a sip, nothing more.
Thank you for amplifying your answer. -
Alcohol was used in the wedding at Cena by Christ. The master of Ceremonies said that usually people give good wine at the start then fall back to cheaper wine when people are "tipsy" and no longer care. These people were not drunk though and it should be noted that wine is fermented but is a weak fermentation. Paul told Timothy to drink a little wine for medical reasons (to ease ulcers).
Beer and hard liquer are considered strong drink and are said in proverbs to be a mockery.
also strong enhanced wines are to be considered hard liquer.
Still, I say that because that is what I believe the Bible teaches. I personally am against any alcohol (except for medical needs). -
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GODzThunder said:
Beer and hard liquer are considered strong drink and are said in proverbs to be a mockery.
also strong enhanced wines are to be considered hard liquer.
No, Spirits and fortified wine are not what the Bible calls "strong drink," as the technology to distill them did not exist until the Middle Ages. However, the Israelites would have known about beer and mead, because of their closeness to Egypt and Babylon. Whatever prohibitions or cautions we wish to take from Scripture concerning spirits have to be inferred from what it says about wine.
Furthermore, "strong drink" is one of the things which the Hebrews were specifically permitted to drink and enjoy in a holy feast (Deut. 14:26). -
Hello, I am brand new to this message board, and I have been skimming over this topic. I knew when I saw the title that there would be alot of posts so here is my two cents. So many people seem to want to ask other people if this certain act or that is "SIN". The Bible says that which is without FAITH is sin. And the just are to live by faith. Do you have faith that at this very moment God WANTS you to drink this glass of wine? I don't mean, do you think He doesn't MIND. Do you think it is His will. Alot of people today seem to be caught up in their "liberty" and not their "responsibility", don't be a stumbling block. Paul said that all things are lawfull, but all things are not expedient. John tells us to abide in Him so that we won't be ashamed at His coming. Since no man knows the hour of His coming, I think it is best to abstain from any alcohol. The last thing I would want, is to be drinking a beer, a glass of wine, a shot of tequila, or anything of that nature, and hear the voice saying, Come up hither, and meet The Lord in the air with a beer in my hand! For me alcohol is sin because I can't drink it and be full of faith. 1Thes. 2:12
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Also, what about Guinness? He was a Christian and created a beer that was actually good for you. How is drinking a Guinness a sin?
Bear in mind that I am a non-drinker.... -
I find this discussion funny. Of course, I'm drinking a beer as I type.
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Thanks for pointing out the distinction between what God may permit and what God desires!
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