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Featured Is God Intrinsically Just?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Nov 15, 2023.

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  1. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    God is just. If He does it, it is just. Pretty simple.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    This IS a good example. I think you are obstinately refusing to accept what those verses plainly say. But we have been over that literally hundreds of times. People can judge for themselves whether our sins being laid on Christ means our sins were transferred from us to Christ. I realize that's your opinion on this but folks will just have to decide for themselves. And you are going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people disagree with your reading of those verses.
    So when you come up with something like this:
    That is not exactly what happens here. Those verses and your silly example are nothing alike. All I ask from you is that you accept the fact that many of us, and many theologians do accept those verses as clearly teaching substitutionary atonement. Not that you have to agree with it. Just that you agree that we believe it. Otherwise we get bogged down and can't discuss anything else because this gets brought up and dominates every thread.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok, let's look at it .

    Scripture says that God laid our sins on Christ.

    For over the first 14 Centuries Christians understood that to mean that Christ bore our sins, that God laid our sins on Him - that God caused the iniquities of us all to fall on Him, but NOT that those sins were transferred from us (hence all the hoopla about Emmanuel, unity, solidarity...etc. in their writings).

    IF that meant God transferred our sins from us AND that meaning was obvious then WHY did it take over a thousand years of Christians reading Scripture to come up with that meaning?

    Why didn't God simply say that our sins were transferred to us in the text of Scripture?


    God laying our sins on Christ simply does not mean our sins were transferred from us. You are adding to Scripture in that case.

    God caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him.

    Where does that even suggest our sins were transferred from us? Where does Scripture state that sins can even be transferred to another? It doesn't.


    An illustration - you are driving a getaway car, your friend robs a store and kills the clerk. You are charged with murder even though you didn't enter the store. Your friends crime was laid on you even though you didn't commit that crime. This does not mean your friend's crime was transferred from him to you

    Likewise, in the OT a sin of the Father could be visited on the son. BUT this isn't a transfer, the father's sin isn't transferred from him. You are reading into Scripture. It is easy to do and something we have all done. But we have to be careful to do our best not to read into a passage.
     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That's fine, but the question is, is God just because He chooses to be? Could He choose to be unjust if that was how He felt? Or is justice intrinsic to His nature?
     
  5. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    No. Let's not because we already have multiple times.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know. I'm always hoping you will answer for your faith when this topic comes up.

    The text of the passage does not state (the actual text) what you believe it teaches.

    And that is fine. That does not mean you are wrong.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Wow! That is really impressive! Did you learn that at seminary? I can just imagine all the eager people coming to hear you expound the Bible "Here is the meaning of 'And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' It means that God has laid on Jesus the sins of all of man." "Golly! How wonderful! I would never have thought of that."
    It would be funny, but it was pretty much the same method that Unitarians used in the 18th Century to avoid explaining their views. Just parrot the Scriptures and refuse to say what you think it means.
    The same applies, but you do not even want to explain why the Holy Spirit led Peter to use xulon, 'tree,' instead of stauros, 'cross.' Perhaps you don't know?
    I pass over the rest of your exegetical masterpiece, and move on to the rest.
    Boy! You have some chutzpah! You won't tell me what you think the Bible means, but you will tell me what I think it means. Of course God does not act unjustly. Stop the muck-spreading!
    Really? I thought that God justified the ungodly (Romans 4:5).
    And who exactly are the innocent in the light of Romans 3:10?
    Nothing is a problem to God (contra Athanasius). He had solved it in eternity (e.g. Isaiah 42:5-9)
    It seems that it is to you.
    The Bible tells us what God did in order to be just and to justify sinners. '... Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation ........ to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:24-26). Had He not set Christ forth as a propitiation, He would have been unjust if He had justified sinners. If you disagree with this, tell us why the Lord Jesus had to die at all..
    '... Whom God set forth as a propitiation' Isn't that in the Bible?
    'And the LORD has laid all on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isn't that in the Bible?
    'He was pierced for our transgression; He was bruised for our iniquities.' Isn't that in the Bible?
    "My God, My God! Why have You forsaken Me? Isn't that in the Bible?
    And where is that in the Bible?
    When nave I ever denied that? 'For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.' How many times have I quoted that?
    My position is entirely Biblical. Your post is a farrago of terminalogical inexactitudes and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself, but unfortunately you seem to resemble the people of Jeremiah 6:15 in that you do not know how to blush.[/QUOTE]
     
    #67 Martin Marprelate, Nov 17, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2023
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    [/QUOTE]
    Did I learn that God has laid the iniquity of us all in seminary? No. I was raised in church and attended seminary because I already had a strong biblical foundation.

    I learned that by reading the Bible. My statement was an actual verse from the Bible. It is a verse from Isaiah (Isaiah 53:6). And no need to become insulting.

    God laid on Christ the iniquity of us all.

    Let's consider what it means - it means that God laid (put upon) Him (Jesus) the iniquity (sin) of us all (all over of us, mankind).

    Which words do you think mean "transferred from'?

    That is the point. You are talking about what you believe the Bible teaches while I am talking about the text of the Bible.

    The verse itself does not say that God transferred our sins from us. You ADD to Scripture (it is a teaching, not the text).

    Does that verse itself teach that God transferred our sin from us?

    No. It teaches what it states - God laid on Jesus the iniquity of us all.


    That is the difference between you and I. We approach Scripture differently, so we come out with different conclusions.


    If somebody comes to me and asks what "God laid on Him the iniquity of us all" means I would tell him that it means God put on Jesus the sin of all man.

    It is up to me to explain the meaning of Scripture, but not to add to Scripture itself.

    God revealed Himself to us in Scripture. Scripture, regardless of your opinion, really is sufficient. We don't need to, and shouldn't, add to the Bible.
     
  9. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    It is an admission that there is no point in continuing to repeat the same arguments over and over. It seems to be "growth" if it goes from what you didn't believe to what you now believe, yet if it involves a development that goes from what you now believe to what you don't believe - well, that is an error and we must look back to see what used to be the predominate school of thought.

    That is OK. But mere persistence in repeating your argument is of limited value. I do admit I have no new argument or thought to add to my view nor do I claim some private supernatural revelation so I don't see the value in repeating what we have been over.
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In one way, you are right.

    People have mindsets that will never be changed. Try talking to a Mormon about Scripture. Those truly steeped in that tradition will never be moved.

    But you are also wrong in a way.

    By repeatedly pointing out that the core of your faith is extra-biblical I hope others will reexamine their views and at least consider that what is in the actual text of Scripture is what is being taught.

    God says he laid the iniquity of us all on Christ. You say He also transfered our sins from us. If even one person is able to discern where you have added to God's Word it will be worth the discussion.
     
  11. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    @JonC. I think you are trying to make a distinction without a difference.
    I am satisfied to leave it at the first sentence in the quote and do when I talk to people but yes, it does indeed mean the latter, that our sins were transferred from us to Christ in the sense that he then bore our sin, as you have agreed with, and thus we won't have to bare them ourselves.

    I just don't see the point of wrecking another good thread with this when we have been over this so many times.
    Once again, you bring in a laughable illustration. In the above case I'm charged with murder because I helped facilitate the crime. You trying to compare that to the Biblical truth of Christ bearing our sin is so silly as to beyond belief. Christ was not only completely innocent, but much scripture is written explaining how Christ is uniquely qualified to bear our sin. No, this cannot be compared to any kind of normal human story, even if you were to come up with a good illustration.

    Why don't you start another thread on this and see if this one can still be salvaged. I was interested in learning about this subject.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Well, to name but two: John 1:29. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." 1 John 3:4-5. 'Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.'

    Now, please, pay attention. God lays upon Christ, in whom there is no sin, the iniquity of us all. Christ is pierced for our iniquity, and takes it way. If my sin has been laid upon Christ and He has taken it away, having paid the penalty for it, then ipso facto it is no longer on me because it has been transferred to Him and He, like the scapegoat in Leviticus 16, has taken it away By His stripes I am healed. But it's even better than that. I now have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me (2 Corinthians 5:21). How does that take place? Through the believers' union with Christ. God can now be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. All right there in the Bible, but if you really have been to seminary you will know that to find the true meaning of any passage you have to compare Scripture with Scripture, which is all that I have done.

    Now the question I asked in the O.P. was, is God intrinsically just? If He is, then He cannot clear the guilty (i.e. anyone and everyone) without receiving a satisfaction to His justice in respect of sin. That is why we are told that 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin' and why 'The blood of Jesus Christ ... cleanses us from all unrighteousness.'
     
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Our sins were lain on Christ. And Christ does take away the sins of the world.

    But if you read your Bible instead of using it as a reference book then you would find that it is not via a transfer of sin. Sin cannot even be transferred (sins are actions). Guilt cannot even be transferred. You are still adding to Scripture.

    It is the blood of Christ that cleanses, the work of Christ that forgiveness is based upon, and it is in Christ that we find forgiveness (in Him there is no condemnation).

    Scripture tells us this -

    God set forth Christ as a Propitiation
    He is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world
    God lain upon Him the iniquity of us all
    He bore our sins bodily on the cross
    He was pierced for our transgressions
    He was bruised for our iniquities
    By His stripes we are healed
    He, who knew no sin, was made sin
    He became a curse for us

    We are justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    Why is that not enough for you?
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Because it is not complete. And Without the whole Bible, God is not just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. Do you believe that God i intrinsically just?
    Why do you not believe the whole Bible?
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, I believe that scripture does affirm Unconditional Election [prior to learning the Doctrines of Grace formal doctrines, I would have described that concept as “God chooses to show mercy on whomever God chooses to show mercy for reasons that have nothing to do with me deserving it and closer to ‘just because God wants to’.]

    However, accepting that something is TRUTH (the way things really are) and understanding how “the way things really are” is FAIR are two completely different things. So I acknowledge that God is completely within His rights to do WHATEVER PLEASES HIM - I get no say and have no grounds to complain - but I don’t always comprehend the WHY, so the WHAT can seem ‘an odd choice’ from my point of view.
     
    #75 atpollard, Nov 18, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    “I would not give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.”
    ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes

    [​IMG]
     
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do believe the whole Bible.

    I already said that God is just - He will never clear the guilty and will never punish the innocent.

    We have gone through about all passages over the past decade, so reply with the ones I don't believe. No need to insult me.
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You have accused me of adding to Scripture. That is a total untruth, but I know it's no use protesting because you are the moderator and are marking your own homework. But if I accuse you of not believing the whole of Scripture, you throw a hissy fit. Your post #72 left out something very important. Have another look and see what it is..
    Well, you have ignored my post #72. Have a go at that.
     
  19. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You have accused me of not believing all of Scripture but you are unable to provide any passage that I don't believe.

    That is not throwing a hissy fit. That is saying that before you make an accusation you should consider your words.

    Let me know what passage or verse I do not believe. SHOW me. That way I can learn and come to believe the passage. It is called edification. Don't just say I don't believe God's Word. Show me where I don't believe His Word.
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I understand your theory. It is not biblical.

    God laid our sins on Christ. Christ was pierced for our sin. You got that part right. But you conclusions are wrong.
     
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