Is God Intrinsically Just?

God is just. If He does it, it is just. Pretty simple.

 

This IS a good example. I think you are obstinately refusing to accept what those verses plainly say. But we have been over that literally hundreds of times. People can judge for themselves whether our sins being laid on Christ means our sins were transferred from us to Christ. I realize that's your opinion on this but folks will just have to decide for themselves. And you are going to have to accept the fact that a lot of people disagree with your reading of those verses.
So when you come up with something like this:

That is not exactly what happens here. Those verses and your silly example are nothing alike. All I ask from you is that you accept the fact that many of us, and many theologians do accept those verses as clearly teaching substitutionary atonement. Not that you have to agree with it. Just that you agree that we believe it. Otherwise we get bogged down and can't discuss anything else because this gets brought up and dominates every thread.

 

That's fine, but the question is, is God just because He chooses to be? Could He choose to be unjust if that was how He felt? Or is justice intrinsic to His nature?

 

No. Let's not because we already have multiple times.

 

Wow! That is really impressive! Did you learn that at seminary? I can just imagine all the eager people coming to hear you expound the Bible "Here is the meaning of 'And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' It means that God has laid on Jesus the sins of all of man." "Golly! How wonderful! I would never have thought of that."
It would be funny, but it was pretty much the same method that Unitarians used in the 18th Century to avoid explaining their views. Just parrot the Scriptures and refuse to say what you think it means.

The same applies, but you do not even want to explain why the Holy Spirit led Peter to use xulon, 'tree,' instead of stauros, 'cross.' Perhaps you don't know?
I pass over the rest of your exegetical masterpiece, and move on to the rest.

Boy! You have some chutzpah! You won't tell me what you think the Bible means, but you will tell me what I think it means. Of course God does not act unjustly. Stop the muck-spreading!

Really? I thought that God justified the ungodly (Romans 4:5).

And who exactly are the innocent in the light of Romans 3:10?

Nothing is a problem to God (contra Athanasius). He had solved it in eternity (e.g. Isaiah 42:5-9)

It seems that it is to you.

The Bible tells us what God did in order to be just and to justify sinners. '... Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation ........ to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus' (Romans 3:24-26). Had He not set Christ forth as a propitiation, He would have been unjust if He had justified sinners. If you disagree with this, tell us why the Lord Jesus had to die at all..

'... Whom God set forth as a propitiation' Isn't that in the Bible?

'And the LORD has laid all on Him the iniquity of us all.' Isn't that in the Bible?

'He was pierced for our transgression; He was bruised for our iniquities.' Isn't that in the Bible?

"My God, My God! Why have You forsaken Me? Isn't that in the Bible?

And where is that in the Bible?

When nave I ever denied that? 'For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.' How many times have I quoted that?

My position is entirely Biblical. Your post is a farrago of terminalogical inexactitudes and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself, but unfortunately you seem to resemble the people of Jeremiah 6:15 in that you do not know how to blush.[/QUOTE]

 

It is an admission that there is no point in continuing to repeat the same arguments over and over. It seems to be "growth" if it goes from what you didn't believe to what you now believe, yet if it involves a development that goes from what you now believe to what you don't believe - well, that is an error and we must look back to see what used to be the predominate school of thought.

That is OK. But mere persistence in repeating your argument is of limited value. I do admit I have no new argument or thought to add to my view nor do I claim some private supernatural revelation so I don't see the value in repeating what we have been over.

 

@JonC. I think you are trying to make a distinction without a difference.

I am satisfied to leave it at the first sentence in the quote and do when I talk to people but yes, it does indeed mean the latter, that our sins were transferred from us to Christ in the sense that he then bore our sin, as you have agreed with, and thus we won't have to bare them ourselves.

I just don't see the point of wrecking another good thread with this when we have been over this so many times.

Once again, you bring in a laughable illustration. In the above case I'm charged with murder because I helped facilitate the crime. You trying to compare that to the Biblical truth of Christ bearing our sin is so silly as to beyond belief. Christ was not only completely innocent, but much scripture is written explaining how Christ is uniquely qualified to bear our sin. No, this cannot be compared to any kind of normal human story, even if you were to come up with a good illustration.

Why don't you start another thread on this and see if this one can still be salvaged. I was interested in learning about this subject.

 

Well, to name but two: John 1:29. "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." 1 John 3:4-5. 'Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.'

Now, please, pay attention. God lays upon Christ, in whom there is no sin, the iniquity of us all. Christ is pierced for our iniquity, and takes it way. If my sin has been laid upon Christ and He has taken it away, having paid the penalty for it, then ipso facto it is no longer on me because it has been transferred to Him and He, like the scapegoat in Leviticus 16, has taken it away By His stripes I am healed. But it's even better than that. I now have the righteousness of Christ imputed to me (2 Corinthians 5:21). How does that take place? Through the believers' union with Christ. God can now be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. All right there in the Bible, but if you really have been to seminary you will know that to find the true meaning of any passage you have to compare Scripture with Scripture, which is all that I have done.

Now the question I asked in the O.P. was, is God intrinsically just? If He is, then He cannot clear the guilty (i.e. anyone and everyone) without receiving a satisfaction to His justice in respect of sin. That is why we are told that 'Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin' and why 'The blood of Jesus Christ ... cleanses us from all unrighteousness.'

 

Because it is not complete. And Without the whole Bible, God is not just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus. Do you believe that God i intrinsically just?
Why do you not believe the whole Bible?

 

Frankly, I believe that scripture does affirm Unconditional Election [prior to learning the Doctrines of Grace formal doctrines, I would have described that concept as “God chooses to show mercy on whomever God chooses to show mercy for reasons that have nothing to do with me deserving it and closer to ‘just because God wants to’.”]

However, accepting that something is TRUTH (the way things really are) and understanding how “the way things really are” is FAIR are two completely different things. So I acknowledge that God is completely within His rights to do WHATEVER PLEASES HIM - I get no say and have no grounds to complain - but I don’t always comprehend the WHY, so the WHAT can seem ‘an odd choice’ from my point of view.

 

“I would not give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.”
~ Oliver Wendell Holmes

 

You have accused me of adding to Scripture. That is a total untruth, but I know it's no use protesting because you are the moderator and are marking your own homework. But if I accuse you of not believing the whole of Scripture, you throw a hissy fit. Your post #72 left out something very important. Have another look and see what it is..

Well, you have ignored my post #72. Have a go at that.