Is God through with Isreal, based on this?

A) Not a covenant theologian. I hold to new covenant theology (a brand of it anyways).
B) The Bible makes it clear that the church is the seed and children of Abraham. Rom. 4:16 (but the entire chapter) says Abraham is the "father of us all." That can't be limited to just Jewish Christians since the next verse makes it clear that he was the father of many nations.
C) And "know then that it is those of faith who are sons of Abraham" according to Gal. 3:8. Gal. 3:29 is pretty clear that we are heirs of the covenant blessing of God.

First, the promise began w/ Abraham. But that promise was to bless the nations (Gen. 12:3 which Paul calls the gospel in Gal. 3:8). So the point of Israel's election was universal in its scope. The promises to Israel to be the distinct people of God was to bless the nations.

Second, Paul says that ALL the promises are fulfilled in Jesus (2 Cor. 1:20). In other words, Jesus embodied Israel. He was the new/redefined Israel. He experienced the same events as Israel (going down to Egypt, being called "son" out of Egypt, Jordan river experience, wilderness wandering of 40 days vs 40 years, mountain top experience w/ the presence of God at his transfiguration, ect...). Jesus as the New Moses and the new temple is also the new Israel. Thus, Israel's covenants and mission was completed in him.

Third, your question as to which nations misses the point. But to answer, we are a kingdom of priests (1 Pet 2:9 and Rev. 1:6), a holy nation (1 Pet 2:9), a people (1 Pet 2:9). Paul applies language to Israel to the Gentiles in Rom. 9:25-26 which make it explicit that the Gents are also a part of the people of God which is entered through faith rather than ethnicity.

The "ordinances" will not depart thus there will always be the people of God. This is a similar statement to Matt. 16:18 where the gates of hades will not prevail over the church. God's people will always exist. This is a good proof of eternal security.

Again, if (as it seems the NT implies) the church is the redefined Israel (the people of God composed of Jews and Gents), then Israel continues just differently than before. Jesus embodied Israel and then passed on that concept and mission to his disciples (he called himself the light of the world, an allusion to Isaianic metaphor of Israel and God's mission for them; which later he transferred to his disciples at the Sermon on the Mount). The disciples then continue that ministry as demonstrated in the great commission to make more disciples.

 

Thanks for the input... very profitable.

 

Wrong.:

For how many soever be the promises of God, in him [Christ] is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20

16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
29 And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise. Gal 3

All the promises apply to the Church through Christ.

Wrong.:

... it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9:8

It's NOT physical Israel, but spiritual Israel.

 

First the Promise says the seed or offspring of Israel. The Hebrew l)r#y or Yisra'el meaning:
the second name for Jacob given to him by God after his wrestling with the angel at Peniel
the name of the descendants and the nation of the descendants of Jacob
the name of the nation until the death of Solomon and the split
the name used and given to the northern kingdom consisting of the 10 tribes under Jeroboam; the southern kingdom was known as Judah
the name of the nation after the return from exile
So the promise is to the descendents of Jacob the seed from his physical descendents not a metaphorical, spiritual relationship. The actually literal physical seed of Jacob, that nation would not cease to be forever, it would be taken and dispersed but God always has a plan for that physical nation of physical (DNA) of Israel (Jacob) and the 12 literal tribes.

2 Cor. 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us
Every promise concerning Him is yea, He fulfilled every promise concerning His first coming. It is finished the work of salvation for all mankind was finished. He did not embody Israel but He embodied every promise made to mankind. He embodied the Promised saviour Adam and Eve looked for they were not Jews nor descendents of Israel. He embodied the Saviour promised to Enoch who was translated and Enoch was not of Nation Israel. He embodied the Promised saviour to Noah again not an Israelite. Point Hefulfilled ALL the PROMISES concerniong a Saviour given to every man and that every human believed was coming in the O.T. that would include Job another non-Israelite.
Promises given to Israel were for Israel, Promises of a saviour to pay for their sins was given to all mankind in the promises to Adam and Eve.

Again the Nation (physical) of descendents Israel (physical and genetically) would not cease from being a nation unless the Ordinances of Sun, Moon and Stars passed from God.

 

Israel is God's elect nation as an ethnic people, and God has only temporarily set her aside to call out a people from the gentile nations. When the final Gentile elect "be come in" then the temporary blind condition of Israel (Rom. 11:25) will be removed. They are NOW "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" however, "BUT touching election they are beloved for the father's sake."

Just because the same salvation is applied to gentiles now does not mean it will not be the same salvation applied to Israel then!

The language of Jeremiah if symbolically is symbolic of God's eternal promise that he will never ever UTTERLY forsake Israel as a nation. If he allows them to "stumble" he will not allow them to utterly "fall" (Rom. 11:12-13) but will graft them in "AGAIN" into their "OWN" tree! You cannot graft in "AGAIN" what has not been broken off and the "remnant" and elect Gentiles have not been "broken off."

The same Israel that is retained in blindness in Romans 11:25 is the same "Israel" in verse 26.

Neither the "remnant" or the elect Gentiles have been retained in "blindness" UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles "be come in" because their salvation is PRESENT whereas the salvation of this "Israel" from blindness in Romans 11:25 is not "UNTIL" the last gentile elect be come in.

The church is the visible representation of God's kingdom on earth as was the nation of Israel before its fall and the same covenant salvation applies to the people of God now as will be applied to Israel at the coming of Christ (Zech. 12:10-13:1; Rev. 1:7; Rom. 11:25-27).

Do not be deceived or as Paul addresses Gentile believers - "NOT..BE IGNORANT" that Israel's blindness is partial and during this present part of God's redemptive plan she is NOW "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" however, in regard to the WHOLE redemptive purpose of God "BUT touching election they are beloved for the father's sake" - their TIME of salvation according to God's elective purppose has not yet arrived but it will because the "gifts and calling of God are without repentance:"

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So the words of Jeremiah concerning the sun and the moon and stars are in fact literal.

 

This does not disprove my claim that "israel" refers to more than just a physical, ethnic nation of people. Just b/c you don't have it included in your list is not determinative nor conclusive. Rom. 9:6 makes it clear that your list in incomplete. And you don't even have to read into it what I want, it still has a spiritual meaning, i.e. the saved Jews (according to your interpretation). The fact is, "Israel of God" has that meaning, although I see much more significance than that.

So every promise equals just the promises of his 1st coming??? Is that your logic, really? Every promise finds its fulfillment in Jesus. Thus your next statement below seems a bit foolish. But first... Matthew makes it clear that Jesus was an embodiment of Israel. Good read on this is "Recapitulation of Israel".

Either this means that Jesus embodies Israel or you are completely wrong. Paul tells us that the promises of the OT find their fulfillment in Jesus. Gal. 3 demonstrates that. The seed is Jesus not Israel.

Again... the people of God (aka "Israel") will not cease from being a holy nation, a kingdom of priests, a people of God b/c the sun, moon, and stars will not pass away.

 

We've confused spiritual Israel with political Israel for far too long.

 

Spiritual isreal would be those "fulfilled" Jews who are part of the faithful remnant elected out and saved by God from "political" isreal...

NEITHER refers to the Church!

 

You are welcome and ... I know, that is why I suggested it.

 

Thank you for the articulation. From here on out I will refrain from referring to them as physical Israel; 'political Israel' is a much better description.

 

It might be beneficial to go with the Bible's distinction: Isreal "after the flesh". (1 Cor 10:18)

 

I read where someone used Romans 11:25, and that has already taken place. Read this passage very carefully:

Romans 11:17-25

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


The fulness of the gentiles was completed when Jesus died, was buried, and arose the third morning. He made us neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, but one Spirit.


Ephesians 2:13-22

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


So, now we gentiles are on equal ground with the Jews. Because of the Jews continual unbelief, they were cut off, and we were grafted in, by Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. Now, if the Jews will believe that Jesus is the Messiah that was here on earth, was hung between the heavens and the earth, and ascended back to the Father, and is the only way to get to God, they too, can be saved.

 

Pontificate much???

 

That is Biblical fact! Romans 9:6-8 teaches nothing more than TWO different kinds of ETHNIC JEWS. (1) Once born ethnic Jews; (2) Twice born ethnic Jews who are the children according to the promise. Romans 9:6-8 does not teach another Israel in the sense of non-ethnic Israel.


It was not a distinction in NATIONAL ETHNICITY but a distinction in spiritual versus non-spiritual within the SAME ETHNIC NATION. Hence, this spiritual and non-spiritual Israel is CONFINED within the SAME ETHNIC NATION!

Every contextual illustration provided by Paul in the immediate context proves this.


This is true of Isaac Versus Ishmael - same ethnic father but different spiritual fathers.

This is true with Jacob versus Esau - same ethnic father but different spiritual fathers.

The "TWO" are ONE in regard to ethnicity and yet are TWO in regard to SPIRITUALITY.

 

Though I would dispute the ethnicity issue here, even if you are correct, it still doesn't change the fact that "israel" can have a spiritual meaning that refers to more than an ethnic person. And that was my point. The person who made a list and said "israel" means this this and this neglected to mention the spiritual nature that "israel" can have.

Therefore, my contention is that if "israel" can be spiritualized to mean more than a natural jew (in your case a spiritual/saved jew), then is it also possible to take it further theologically to refer to the people of God generally?

However, my point about the pontification was that JF didn't even use Scripture. I appreciate the fact that you did. But when we who claim scripture alone fail to use scripture to make a point, then we are no better than those that are their own authority. Thus the accusation of pontification.

 

Point well taken, its that the fact has been firmly established in the sacred text themselves that Spiritual isreal refers to those jews whom God has saved in their Messiah, national isreal would be those born of the flesh...

Again, NOT reference to the concept of Church has supplanted/replaced isreal in the plan of God!

 

The Pope would say the same thing about his views as well ("firmly established in the sacred text themselves")

Again, it seems a legitimate leap to think the NT writers (and even OT) would use the term "israel" in broader meaning of simply the "people of God." Just as gentiles can have a broader meaning of those "not the people of God."

 

My point was that it cannot be used to describe Non-ethnic Jews and so your point is null and void.

For example, concerning Galatians 3:29:


29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This text does not use the term "ISRAEL" to define ALL of Abraham's "seed" because MOST of Abraham's "seed" come from the "NATIONS" he is the "father" of BY FAITH not by ethnicity or NATURAL BIRTH. However, in regard to those in Romans 9:5-13 he is their "father" ETHNICALLY by natural birth and metaphorically "by faith." However, this DUAL relationship cannot be said of the GENTILE relationship to Abraham.

Two different ethnic origins of his "seed" but only one spiritual origin. Hence, he is not the "father" of both in the SAME SENSE. In regard to elect Jews he is their "father" both ethnically BY BIRTH and metaphorically BY FAITH but with gentile elect he is not their "father" BY BIRTH but only their "father" metaphorically "by faith". Hence, the proper term that is used is "seed" but not "Israel" to show this relationship with both gentile and Jewish elect.

If my position is correct, he could not use the term "Israel" in Galatians 3:29 but would have to use the term "seed" referring only to the "promise seed" BY FAITH or NEW BIRTH rather than BY ETHNIC BIRTH. If they were all "seed" by ETHNIC BIRTH and he was the "Father" of Gentile elect by ETHNIC BIRTH then he would have used the term "ISRAEL" not "seed."

Can you admit that he used the term "seed" instead of "Israel" in Galatians 3:29?

Can you admit that Abraham is NOT the ethnic "father" of Gentiles. No historian would assert that Abraham is the ETHNIC "father" of elect negroids, slavs, germanic tribes, etc.

Can you admit that Abraham has "seed" NOT BY ETHNIC BIRTH but metaphorically "by faith?

Can you admit that the "seed" of Abraham does not require ETHNIC RELATIONSHIP BY PHYSICAL BIRTH?

If you do admit to all these things then the use of "seed" is not equivilent to the use of "Israel" but "seed" can include ALL OF GOD's people regardless of ETHNIC RELATIONSHP to Abraham but the term "ISRAEL" cannot deny ETHNIC RELATIONSHIP to Abraham.

 

Can you admit that the Church is referred to as the 'Israel of God' in Gal 6:16?

 

The Apostle paul always was clear to linate the difference still between "spiritual" isreal, believing jews, now aprt of the Church, while extending forth the promises to God still to come for "national isreal"