That there were no reliable recordings of ANY individuals/churches/groups practicing Gifts like healing/prophesying/tongues etc until early 1900's at so called "Azuzu revivals?"
None were ever recorded especially in baptist circles?
is it true Historically In Church Age NO Sign Gifts Operated Until 20th Century?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 17, 2011.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Has God healed in answer to prayer.....yes. SIGN GIFTS.....5 fold ministry NO. -
Doesn't Wayne Grudem hold they are valid today, and isn't he considered to be both 'reformed" and "baptist" respected Theologian? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
When you go "outside the confessions" denying parts of them...you are no longer a Reformed Baptist.
When people say they like his book...they like that he brings it up to date as far as language goes.....and he raises some questions that can help in some other areas......on these areas he is off...redefining truth
here is a link;
http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj2h.pdf -
1. signs.
2. gifts, and supernatural gifts.
3. They were not simply answers to prayer as we see in our lives. God heals, but heals in answer to prayer.
Here is an example of the Biblical gift of healing:
There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. (Acts 5:16)
--Note how many people there were healed. All the cities round about, not just Jerusalem--from there they brought their sick, and Peter healed them all, even the paraplegics, the broken limbs, the deaf, blind, all that came to him, and he healed them instantly.
The equivalent of that is for a faith healer today to go into the ER of a hospital and heal all who come into it, finish there and go up and down the corridors and heal all that are in the hospital. That is what Peter was doing--healing all that were in all the hospitals in all the cities round about Jerusalem.
No one does that or can do that today. -
What do you do with Mark 16:17-18? Jesus never gave an expiration date on these signs that would follow those who believe. Do we base our interpretation on our own experiences or on God's Word? I've never seen the signs either, but I can't just ignore Christ's own words.
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mar 16:17-18) -
Two answeres usually given to address this..
NOT found in best manuscripts, added on by scribes/copiers
JUST recording what the Apostles able to do, not for us today! -
Are we just assuming that prophecies/words/tongues etc were JST used as revelation from God until Canon completed, kind of a transistion period?
Does that mean we can NOT use anything in Act/Romans/1 Corinthians etc regarding all of the Spiritual Gifts and how they are to be used?
that God had a Manual for Apiostolic Churches, another for us today?
How do we pick and choose? -
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:21-22)
--These two verses go together in context. They cannot be separated.
In verse 21 it is a fulfillment of prophecy given in Isaiah 28:11,12. People outside of the nation of Israel (Gentiles) would speak to the Jews in strange languages the message of God. This is unheard of. The Gentiles were like dogs to the Jews. They were unclean, and to receive God's message from the Gentile was anathema. But if they didn't receive it, judgment would come. This was the sign. It was a sign to the Jews. It was given to thousands of Jews on the Day of Pentecost and at various times since then.
Then in verse 22 it specifies again, but this time what kind of Jew. "Wherefore tongues are for a sign...to them that believe not. That is the unbelieving Jew. The two verses are connected with the "wherefore." They are a sign to the Jews, the unbelieving Jews. One might say, no unbelieving Jews present; no need for tongues to be spoken. But that is only one of the purposes of tongues. -
I do realisre that Acts recorded a transistional period within the Church, as God was confirming to Jews Jesus was indeed messiah, and to also bring Gentiles to Him, but why do you see it also being transistional for espistles doctrine? -
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is it really "all or nothing" on this issue? can't we affirm Canon has closed, Miracles/healings were THE signs performed by Apostles to confirm jesus as Messiah/Christ, but that other Gifts still can function, but in a Biblical order? -
The sense of this verse is that, God bore them (the Hebrews) witness with signs and wonders (done by the Apostles) along with different miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit (which would presumably include tongues).
In 1Cor.14, Paul was rebuking them for their abuse of the use of tongues, but in doing so he says, "I thank God that I have spoken in tongues more than you all." The believers were very carnal in their usage of the gift. In fact many spoke, pretending to have it when they didn't. I would not be dogmatic about these gifts being given to the "laity." In fact they were only given to a very few.
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30)
--As there were only a few apostles, and a few prophets, there were likewise only a few who had one gift or another. Not all could prophesy; not all could speak in tongues. -
just saying why give such a detailed way to have Gifts operating in a Church setting, when they would all cease within 100 years?
Also, have read that Prophets and Tongues were giving "revelatory" stuuf in the early Church, why, as Apostles still were alive and no need to do that?
So why couldn' those Gifts still opearte today, since they evidently were NOT scriptures, and not "inspired" as Apostles were? -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
just finish the whole passage;
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The "new tongue" is when God moves in us, when begin rejoicing, praising Him for what He has done. When began shouting, preaching, etc. Whenever God blesses me to preach His Word, I speak with a "new tongue", and this is when the holy Spirit blesses me to proclaim His Word. I can not do this in my own tongue, but when I preach His Word with my natural tongue, anointed by His Grace, I speak through the Spirit with the "new tongue"....and no, I am not talking about the "glurbling", "blarbling", "babbling" sound that the "word of faith" movement speaks about. -
isn't that time when the imperfect becomes perfect? When there is no more need, at the Second Coming of Christ?
NOT the canon being completed and closed?
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