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Is Lordship Salvation a misnomer?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Ruben, Feb 27, 2006.

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  1. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    S&N insists that we must deal with his arbitrary verse lists, which he insists are to unsaved people. But he doesn't exegete them or interpret them. Okay, I'll deal with this one.

    Matt. 4:19 is to Peter and Andrew, but there is no indication in the text or context whether or not they were saved. I believe they were saved and this was their call to service.

    Matt. 8:19 is to a scribe, but we find from the context that he was already a disciple, a believer, since the man in v. 22 is called “another disciple.”

    Matt. 8:22 is to “another disciple,” so he was already a believer.

    Matt. 9:9 is to Matthew, but it doesn’t say if he was saved yet or not.

    Matt. 16:24 is to “His disciples,” so they were already believers.

    Matt. 19:21 is to the rich young man. Jesus tells him to sell all he has, and then he will have treasure in Heaven. I dealt with this passage when it was mentioned by S&N earlier, and I don’t believe it proves Lordship Salvation at all. The significant thing here is that, according to the order of salvation given by S&N earlier, the man would have been saved if he had sold his possessions. Jesus told him to “Follow Me,” then, after he would have been saved.

    Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 are parallel to Matt. 9:9.

    Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 are parallel to Matt. 16:24.

    Mark 10:21 and Luke 18:22 are parallel to Matt. 19:21.

    Luke 8:57-59 are parallel to Matt. 8:19-22.

    John 1:43 is to Phillip, but we don’t know from the context exactly when he got saved.

    John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.

    John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved.

    John 13:36 is to Peter. Jesus is speaking of His own death, therefore this is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically.

    John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.

    Acts 12:8 is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically. And besides, it is about following an angel, not Jesus. This proves to me how careless S&N is being with the Scripture. He evidently didn’t even realize this is about following an angel out of prison, since he included it with verses about following Jesus.

    At the end of his list, S&N tacked on Luke 9:61 and John 21:22, out of order. Luke 9:61 is a continuation of the parallel passage to Matt. 8, and is therefore redundant.

    John 21:22 is a continuation of the words of Jesus to Peter from earlier in the chapter, and is therefore redundant.

    SOOOOOOO, what is the record? S&N cannot prove exegetically that a single one of these passages is to lost people. Furthermore, Matt. 8:19 & 22, 16:24 (and the parallels in Mark and Luke), John 10:27, John 12:26 and at least the later passages about Peter are definitely to disciples, who are believers.

    S&N did not prove his point with this casually thrown together list. On the contrary, he proved that Jesus often told those who were already disciples to follow Him!!
    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Let’s examine JoJ’s reply to my previous post.

    I agree that John 13:36 and Acts 12:8 were not good proof texts. Now, let's look at the others.

    MA 4:19 describes Jesus' first encounter with Peter and Andrew. JoJ said "I believe they were saved and this was their call to service."

    Actually, the same event is described in John 1:35-50 which sheds more light on the question.

    Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
    Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Jhn 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
    Jhn 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
    Jhn 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
    Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
    Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
    Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
    Jhn 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
    Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
    Jhn 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
    Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
    Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
    Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.


    The key verves are John 1:41 and 1:50

    Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
    Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

    If the three disciples had first found the Messiah, I don't think it's accurate to assume that they had already been saved prior to this event. Christ expressed surprise that Nathanael believed because He had seen Nathanael under the fig tree.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Mathew 8:19-22 is clarified by looking at the range of definitions for the Greek word "mathetes" which is translated as disciple here. (Strong's 3101).

    1) a learner, pupil, disciple.

    Therefore, both of these "disciples" could simply have been people who had heard about Jesus and had joined the multitudes who came to see Him and to learn more about Him. Certainly, these weren't disciples in the same sense that the twelve were.

    MA 9:9 talks about Jesus' first meeting with Mathew. I believe that the same argument used previously for Andrew, Peter, Phillip, and Nathanael (John 1:41) holds true for Mathew as well. This was the first time he met Jesus. He wasn't saved yet.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    I really take issue with your interpretation of MA 16:24.

    Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Christ is talking to His disciples but He is making a statement about "any [man]." This is perhaps the best description of Christ's requirement for salvation.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    As far as MA 19:21 is concerned it is true that the rich young ruler would have been saved if he had been willing to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. I don't agree that this says nothing about Lordship Salvation. In fact it's a very good proof text for it.

    The ruler demonstrated that he was unwilling to give up his money (his master) to follow Christ. He was unwilling to make Christ his Lord because his riches were his lord. This is exactly what I'm talking about. We must give up our false master to accept the real one.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    My reply to your answers for the parallel passages is the same as my reply above to the original. In other words, you misinterpreted them in the same way as you misinterpreted the original ones.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    John 1:43 refers to Jesus' initial meeting with Phillip. My reply once again is that this is explained by John 1:35-50.


    You replied that John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.

    My point exactly. Christians accept Jesus as Lord (Sheppard) and follow Him.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    For John 12:26 you said "John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved."

    Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.

    I don't see that this passage says that serving Christ precedes following Him. In fact it says that serving Him requires that we follow Him to serve Him wherever He is.
    ________________________________________________________________________

    John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.

    Of course, this verse is to Peter at a much later point in time. But even then, Christ is testing Peter. Look at John 21:17.

    Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

    Jesus says that if Peter loves Him he must do something, "Feed My sheep." The importance of loving Christ is stressed in John Chapter 14.

    Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    Note verse 21 says that those who keep Christ’s commandments loves Him and is loved by the Father and Christ. This shows the requirement for an abiding close relationship (love) between us and Christ. If we do that we will know on that day (Judgment) that we are in Christ (saved).
     
  2. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    I have after years of thinking that I could be saved without serving Jesus as Lord. Ignore this at your perile.

    What did Jesus man when He said "Come and follow Me?"

    He said in MA.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely wrong, S&N. There is no contextual or linguistic connection whatever between Matt. 24:13 and any of the verses you quoted on Jesus (oh, yes, and an angel, too) saying "Follow me." You are inventing your own rules of hermeneutics here. Ignore proper interpretation of God's Word at your peril.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Do you accept the truth of Mat 24:13? What does it mean to you?
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Why must you be insulting? Have you looked at my profile or my website and concluded that I am not a Bible-believing Christian??? :mad:

    Of COURSE I accept the truth of Matt. 24:13. It is prophetic, just as the rest of the Olivet Discourse is. It is referring to the tribulation period and those who endure to the end of it. I am a pre-millenialist. If you are not, fine, but my interpretation is entirely valid and held by many if not all pre-millenialists.
     
  4. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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  5. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    Oh, and you weren't trying to insult me with this?

    "S&N insists that we must deal with his arbitrary verse lists , which he insists are to unsaved people. But he doesn't exegete them or interpret them."

    or this?

    "S&N did not prove his point with this casually thrown together list."
     
  6. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    No I was not trying to insult you. I truly felt your lists were arbitrary and casually thrown together. Otherwise, for example, why would you have something about following an angel in a list about following Jesus??

    Forgive me if you were offended. I was not trying to insult, but to point out what I felt was a flaw in your methodology.
     
  7. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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  8. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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  9. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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  10. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    The blood of Jesus Christ has the power to save me. Nothing else could have turned me from a sin focused life to one of following the risen Savior. I don’t believe that almost everyone on this thread believes that they can accept such a priceless gift and ignore Jesus’ requirement that we must be born again (change our life to one in which Jesus is Lord).

    Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    I certainly agree that the Old Testament faithful lived and were saved under a different covenant than the new covenant provided by the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This would include believers like John the Baptist who met Christ but died before His death and resurrection. I would put everyone who lived after Christ’s resurrection, including all the disciples except Judas Iscariot under the second covenant.

    But Jesus was always focusing on what His disciples should do after His ascension into Heaven so my understanding is that everything He told them should apply to us as well. He’s talking to believers who will be judged under the second covenant and who will be sharing the gospel to others who will also be under the second covenant.

    Therefore, I believe that the great majority of the scripture in the New Testament is speaking directly to us.

    I especially believe that Christ was speaking to us.

    Christ came to this earth to die for us. Certainly that’s true. But He also came to earth to give us the truth. That wisdom wasn’t out of date as soon as He spoke it. It speaks to us down through the ages. It is the absolute gospel truth (literally).

    I accept all the scripture in the Bible as being inspired of God. But I have a real problem with your statements that Jesus’ words somehow don’t apply to us. If you don’t believe what Christ Himself said while He was here on earth why should you believe ANYTHING in the Bible? If your theory of dispensationalism leads you to that conclusion I’d seriously consider giving it up.

    So, what do you think Jesus is saying to us in Jhn 15:4-7? What does it mean when He says:

    Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

    Of course, similar statements are made by other writers of the New Testament.

    James says:

    Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    Justified by works? That’s what it says.

    Peter says:

    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Purified your souls by love of the brethren? That’s what the Bible says.

    Hebrews says:

    Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
    Hbr 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    Hbr 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.
    Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

    Impossible to renew those who have fallen away? That’s what the Good Book says.

    How do you interpret these passages of scripture? Do you accept them?

    We are not His Apostles to be sure. But we are His disciples. Christ calls us to discipleship. That’s not very popular today but it’s what Christians used to believe. I believe that Christians need to return to accepting the responsibilities of discipleship instead of stressing that whatever we do in His name somehow reduces the sovereignty of God. We can’t reduce the sovereignty of God. He is absolutely sovereign. We can bring dishonor on His name by claiming to be Christians and living like one of the lost, however.
     
  11. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    The blood of Jesus Christ has the power to save me. Nothing else could have turned me from a sin focused life to one of following the risen Savior. I don’t believe that almost everyone on this thread believes that they can accept such a priceless gift and ignore Jesus’ requirement that we must be born again (change our life to one in which Jesus is Lord).

    Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    Amen.
    Yes we would like it to be so, every one in every dispensation all having one gospel, but our Just God cannot remain Just if He makes exceptions in His dispensations. John the Baptist died before Jesus shed His blood. God being Just could not put John into the Body of Christ, which is future to John. I believe John will be in the “kingdom that is given to the twelve earthly Apostles”. But I believe they will be “reborn again” into the Body of Christ.

    They lived and preached under the gospel of John the Baptist, as did Jesus of His people must “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins”. We cannot deny this for this is the gospel that Peter preached at Pentecost to his fellow countrymen in Jerusalem. It was required of them for the “kingdom was at hand”. There were no Gentiles to go marching in with them. The Gentiles would tag along, and be as they always were on earth. Subject to God and His people when they were in His will. No provision had been made at that time for the Gentile, other than to come as a proselyte.

    John is saved under the Old Covenant, but is brought up under the New Covenant as all are, or will be. Everyone that has ever lived could only be saved as they lived. We see in Hebrew 11 how all were saved before the Body of Christ is revealed. No one could be saved through the faith of Jesus Christ, so they all came by faith.

    Does Paul’s gospel have something New to tell us? I say yes, and more than one New thing is included.
    I believe every word spoken in the Bible. If we say that and then bypass verses we don’t wish to include in our faith, is it that we don’t believe all of the Bible, or refuse as it is not what we have been taught by man, not fitting into our salvation. If you cut the Word off before you reach Paul’s Epistles, what gospel do you have. Is it not that of the Catholic church, of “repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”? We have to remember John wrote all of His books some 20 to 30 years after the death of Paul. John’s gospel is written to back up the validity of Paul’s gospel, just as it was necessary Peter be the first earthly Apostle of the Jewish Pentecostal church to preach salvation to a Gentile. The Acts 10 incident shows God would not allow Peter to preach the gospel of John the Baptist to a Gentile. At this time Peter was still the head of the Jerusalem church, therefore Peter’s personal testimony certified that Paul had the gospel to the Gentile, else the Christian message may have never gotten of the ground.

    If we believe that we are saved when we believe on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to save us then we are saved. But do we understand?

    Me being a Gentile, I believe He wishes me to understand how much He loves me. When Jesus was on earth He would not give the Gentile the time of day. We know this for we see they are of no concern. He came for a reason and it was for His “flock” as seen in Matthew 15:22-28. We see years later, after Damascus Road Peter still does not acknowledge the existence of the Gentile in Acts 10.

    My, this should tell us something New did happen on Damascus Road. I did not cry when I was saved long ago. But I did when I understood. He didn’t have to save me, but He did, even though He did not come for me. He personally made provision for me in His Body, His Kingdom, in the Kingdom of God His Father.

    But also we do understand this was His eternal purpose.
    But I must believe Jesus when He says He wasn’t speaking to us. However there is quite a bit that can be applied to us, but not all. Two that are not for this “secret time in Him” is the Sermon on the Mount, and the Lord’s Prayer.

    So I agree, but we with the preaching of Jesus Christ are to stand today according to Paul’s gospel, for in it is the revelation of the mystery, kept secret from the beginning (Romans 16:25) . It will be according to Paul’s gospel that God by Jesus Christ will judge the secrets of men – Romans 2:16.
    Christ came to this earth to die for us. Certainly that’s true. But He also came to earth to give us the truth. That wisdom wasn’t out of date as soon as He spoke it. It speaks to us down through the ages. It is the absolute gospel truth (literally).

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    But don’t we find in the mystery of God things hidden as scripture says? Are we to say we “know where and how to find the ‘unsearchable riches of Christ’” even before He tell us? If Jesus had told certain things while He was on the earth, could He have told Paul a “secret”. Jesus did not keep anything secret from those He came for the first time that applied to them.
    Jesus spoke of such things while He was on earth, and He speaks to us today about the same things from heaven, these things being found in Paul’s gospel.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
    I accept all the scripture in the Bible as being inspired of God. But I have a real problem with your statements that Jesus’ words somehow don’t apply to us. If you don’t believe what Christ Himself said while He was here on earth why should you believe ANYTHING in the Bible? If your theory of dispensationalism leads you to that conclusion I’d seriously consider giving it up.

    [/quote]
    I can’t do that. How can I give up Christ in Heaven? He wouldn’t let go even if I wanted to. Why do you argue with God. Jesus told you He did not come for you then. It was only after He was seated beside His Father in heaven that He spoke to we in this “dispensation” of His. You say “dispensation” probably just as those that first called the Christian, a Christian. There goes that “Christian” with some kind of crazy notion of “dispensationalism”.

    Can you in all honesty say you do “accept all the scripture in the Bible as being inspired of God”? Then why will you not believe Paul when he says “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words”, Ephesians 3:1-3.
    This is a very good example of what the Holy Spirit interpreted for me. This is the reason Christ gave to Paul that word you find repulsive, it being “God’s dispensational gospel”. Now don’t tell me you could look at John 15:6 and say, “Jesus is talking about the Body of Christ”, unless you heard it from Paul. If no one, but no one, including Satan didn’t know what this verse meant, there would be no one today that would understand what Jesus was talking about. I believe what Jesus said while He was on this earth, and what he says and explains from heaven. Praise God that we abide in Him.
    I understand where you are coming from. I used to judge people all the time too. There were none like me or those that believed as I, that were pure and without sin. We don’t have to live in our faith that way.

    In Christ we endure. In His faith, not mine is it possible for me to endure.
    What does Christ from heaven say? ”Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law”, Romans 3:27-31. Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved by grace through faith. We have never been promised to inherit this earth as is James, Peter, and John.

    I am not of works. Doesn’t James still live under the Law? Was He saved as a Jew, or as a Gentile? This is the very reason Paul, taking Barnabas and Titus with him, went from the Christian church to the Jewish church in Jerusalem, to tell James and the Apostles they didn’t appreciate some of their people, the Judaziers (troublers) telling the Christians they had to come as the Jew. We Christians are not to be put under bondage, as were those that made “covenant” with God. Please read Galatians chapter 2, and Acts 15.

    James and the Apostles and those of Pentecost were to believe Jesus on earth for in that dispensation they were saved. Paul was a Jew and made “covenant” with God, but Paul was saved in this “dispensation” through faith, just as all Jews today are to be saved.[quote

    Peter says:

    1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently: 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Purified your souls by love of the brethren? That’s what the Bible says.

    [/quote]
    I love you? Don’t you love me? Are we not in the Body of Christ?
    Who is this book written to? I believe Paul wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews. Peter says Paul wrote this letter to them. The book of Hebrews is not written to us to today. We have permission to read other peoples mail that the Holy Spirit had written, but Hebrews is for those then, and in the tribulation period. Christ appointed Paul to preach to both Gentiles and Jews.

    Isn’t it wonderful that we are not under bondage and are free and have the liberty in Christ Jesus, having better than they then as far as the peace and joy of our salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Who is able to break that seal of the Holy Trinity? There was in those days, as scripture proves, those (not saved) but were given the gospel of that day, and some of the Jews here “tasted” of the heaven gift, received the Holy Ghost. That doesn’t make them saved. We believe we can see this in Acts 5:1 with Ananias, and his wife Sapphira.
    Yes, and I also accept that Christ Jesus is today alive and in heaven seated on the right hand of His Father, as He reconciles the world unto himself.
    Are you thinking of anyone in particular? If so, then perhaps we can try and call down fire on them, just as God’s people could do. They could ask and God would do it.

    I am so very thankful that we Christians have already been judged as we are made righteous in Him. I’m sure I will be trembling, and hope I don’t pass out as I stand before Him as He judges what rewards if any that will be coming my way.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  12. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

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    It took me a while to understand what you were saying here because it was so different from my own beliefs. Basically, you're saying that you accept the entire Bible as truth but that none of the New Testament other than the Epistles of Paul apply to you. Jesus' words were significant but they don't apply to you. None of the four gospels apply to you. Is that a correct statement?
     
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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  14. 2BHizown

    2BHizown New Member

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    Love reading MacArthur and have many of his books plus his study bible which is NKJV. A few of his good quotes are these:

    • "The world is filled with millions of people who think they are headed for heaven-but they are deadly wrong. Probably most people think heaven awaits them, but it doesn't." (Hard to Believe)
    • "I have no idea how the fans of Christianity Lite reconcile their approach to religion with the teachings of Jesus, or how they become comfortable ignoring what He said. But the only acceptable approach — for me and you — is to take our Lord at His word in the single source of truth for every authentic Christian: the word of God revealed in the Bible." (Hard to Believe)
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Amen to that, John.
    And I venture to add, Jesus Christ is Lord of all, whether the heathen acknowledge it or not, whether the world acknowledges it or not, whether the devils in hell acknowledge it or not, He is LORD.
    And the day is coming and now is, when every knee in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, shall bow, and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.
    This is a truth that is eternal in origin.

    This is as self-evident as the truth that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved'', but the name of Jesus, and the heathen may not know His name, they may not acknowledge His Name and call on other names, the atheists may not believe in that Name, but there is only One Name under heaven whereby salvation is given, and that is the Name of Jesus.

    Acknowledgement of that Name, or knowledge of that Name, or acceptance of that Name, or submission to His Name, is not the issue. The same thing with Lordship.

    Acknowledgement of His Lordship, knowledge of His Lordship, acceptance of His Lordship, or submission to His Lordship, is not the issue.
     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    Not only is it possible, but it is commanded of us. Christ is Lord, but that doesn't mean that one can not allow the Lord to control his/her individual life.

    Jesus IS Savior, but that doesn't mean that everyone will accept Him as such.

    One day everyone will acknowledge Him as Lord, but we need to do that when it counts and before we are forced to acknowledge that Truth!

    Making Christ the Ruler over your life is a choice that each individual must make. We can either allow the Spirit to work in our lives or we can quench the working of the Spirit in our lives. The choice is up to us.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    When one accepts Christ as Saviour perhaps initially Christ is Lord of His life. But he does not always remain Lord. That is why provision is made in 1John 1:9 to go to him on a daily basis and confess our sins for he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all iniquity. This is not speaking of salvation, but of fellowship.
    If Christ was Lord, 100% of the time, there would be no sin in the believer's life, no need of confession of sin, no need of prayer for other believers, and no need for the judgement seat of Christ. There would be no loss of reward. We would all be at a state of perfect and entire sanctification. But alas that is not the case. Christ is not Lord all the time. We fail. We sin. When we give into temptaion and sin, how can we dare say that at those times in our lives Christ is still Lord? Is he Lord of our sin also?

    I have the privilege of getting in the last word. But then again I have not previously posted on this thread, so I thought I throw in my two cents worth. :)
    The thread has gone past 30 pages and it is time for it to close. Please start a new one if you so feel inclined.
    DHK
     
    #317 DHK, Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
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