It would certainly help your argument that you were not trying to pass something off as your own if you will properly credit where you get your words. Otherwise it IS plagerism.
Is man born totally depraved or can they become depraved over time?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 29, 2009.
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RB, with all the different threads I never saw this and I don't like skipping over anything that appears to be a genuine desire to engage the subject...it is so rare around here lately it seems.
Listen, RB, here is deal. It's obvious that God calls all men to repentance and faith. It's obvious men are held accountable by death and torment if they don't. It's obvious that God wants all to repent and believe. I have to believe that is possible unless scripture clearly reveals otherwise. Do you understand?
I firmly believed Calvinistic dogma...go back to some of my original posts in 2003 if you don't believe me. I don't pretend to be an expert, but I was willing to accept it when I thought that is what scripture taught. I want to be true to the word...regardless of how difficult that is, but I cannot accept something I don't clearly see in scripture.
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We must both live with a clear conscience rooting and grounding our beliefs in Scripture.
Let me say for the record, that I have no real committement to Calvinism. This may seem offensive to some Calvinists, but my committment is first and foremost to the Scripture. I have no committment to the Reformation. My committement is to the Scripture.
There are beliefs within the Calvinistic circles I find utterly disgusting, such as some who believe it is possible that children/infants not being elect may suffer an eternal damnation.
I was working on my computer the other night and I heard the small voice of my 4 year old son cry, "Help me, someone please help me." He sounded very scared, so I raced upstairs to find that he had crawled up on the bathroom sink counter to brush his teeth and could not get down.
Of course, I picked him up, gave him a great big hug and kiss, and put him safely in his bed.
As I was walking downstairs the thought occurred to me of such a one, my son, my little son, making the same cries from the pit of darkenss, eternally separated from the safe home of our gracious God. And I wept.
I prayed for his salvation, that as soon as his mind may understand, and the grace of God lead him, he would embrace Christ as his Lord and Saviour.
And also the thought that God would suffer such a little to undergo the eternal fires of hell, crying for help when none would be given him, as I have learned some Calvinists may think possible, is so utterably abhorable and abomnible to me, I would not permit such a person to even breathe the air in my home.
I share this only as an example so that you know that I too am committed to Holy Scripture over any system of theology. -
I don't know if I believe in Total Depravity or Original Sin. But let me explain.
It is clear that Adam and Eve were created with the ability to either obey God or disobey. They could not have sinned if they were perfect.
But were they still good? Could God declare his creation very good? Yes. Because they were sinless. They were pure. They had committed no sin.
I believe the flesh itelf is the problem. Our flesh has desires, and sometimes those desires pull us toward rebellion or disobedience of God's word. Look what it says about Eve when she was tempted.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
This fruit appealed to her fleshly desires. It looked delicious, it was beautiful to look at, and it offered wisdom. She had great desire to eat this fruit for these reasons, that is what the scriputes show.
I personally do not see "the fall" men talk about. When Adam and Eve sinned, they gained awareness. Before they had walked around naked without being conscious of it, just like a little child often does. They had no personal conscience. They had never experienced shame or guilt before. This is the change the scriptures show, I do not see any other change.
If they were able to sin before they ate of the fruit, and they were able to sin after the fruit, where is a change?
I believe we are all born with these same fleshly desires inherited from Adam and Eve. We are pulled to fulfill our desires. This is obvious.
But man could do good after Adam and Eve sinned. Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice, God said so himself.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
I believe babies are born with these fleshly desires. They want what they want. But babies and young children are amoral. They have no concept of right and wrong and cannot be held accountable. Therefore I believe that all babies and young children are saved.
We often talk about a sin-nature, but is that really shown in scripture? There are scriptures that show the opposite.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Here Paul speaks of Gentiles who "do by nature" the things contained in the law.
Now, how do those who believe in Total Depravity answer this statement by Paul?
I believe we all have fleshly desires that tempt us to sin, but we also have the ability to resist these desires. When a child is old enough to understand right from wrong and chooses to sin, it is at this point that they become a sinner and come under the sentence of death that was introduced by Adam when he sinned.
Look at this statement by Paul:
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
If the doctrine of Original Sin is true, when ever was Paul alive? He would be born spiritually dead if this doctrine is true.
However, if he were born amoral, that is not knowing good from evil, he would be spiritually alive until he was mature enough to understand right from wrong (the law). Then, when he did know right from wrong and chose to follow a sinful desire, upon sinning became a sinner and died.
I am still studying all this. I know it goes against what the church has taught forever. But I want to know what the scriptures teach and say even if that is controversial. -
For the record, I have winman on ignore.
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If I did not care about Calvinists, I would ignore you. I post because I believe the doctrine error. I don't have a lot of grace, that is true. But that doesn't mean I don't care.
Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
to answer the question of the thread title.
Yes. -
Explanation(s): Total depravity is both a state of being as well as a course of action. It applies to the human race as a whole - the totality of men are depraved and each individual is in the state of being of being totally depraved.
However not every human being has had the opportunity or means to manifest that total depravity. In addition there are "common grace" hindrances, the constraint of the Holy Spirit, the conscience, fear of reprisal of the law and "he who wields the sword not in vain" and yes even often times religion along with many other factors which hinder us from manifesting the true nature of our state of being: totally depraved.
Take Nazi Germany as an example of how some of the "nicest" people, (Many of whom were Lutheran or Catholic) became mass murderers or at least put their stamp of approval on genocide and eugenicide.
I saw a documentary of movie films recently discovered from a holocaust death camp. Some of the officers had their families with them and they celebrated religious holidays, had picnics and family outings with love, laughter and play abounding. Then it was back to work the next day murdering and incinerating the innocent.
Given the "right" environment to remove the hindrances, each of us is capable of the most dispicable crimes imaginable.
I would say that it's not a matter of becoming more and more evil each day but becoming more and more embolden to mainfest the deeds of the evil heart (of which we are for the most part unaware) within us.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
HankD -
However, when I think of, for example, children of those in Al Queda I also hurt. I cannot just write them off as "non-elect" (not that you would),but the statistics prove that the very large majority of them will follow the error of their parents heresy.
Wouldn't it be better for them to be killed as infants than raised in that environment? I mean, if we believe God will save all infants, then it only seems to reason that killing them young gives them more hope of eternal life than allowing them to grow up. Even if you hold to "unconditional election," the stats prove that God is not choosing to save very many of the people in that part of the world who are being taught this false teaching. Do you understand my point? I'm not trying to exaggerate or push your views beyond what you are saying, but instead I'm just trying to point out the difficulty that a system of unconditional election creates in such cases. The feelings your have expressed were some of the very problems that lead me to question my position theologically. It just didn't set right with the Spirit in me.
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I also understand God works out His will by means, not regardless of what I do or don't do. Through the preaching of the Word, the adminstration of the ordinances, our home education, et. How do I know what God is using in the lives of my children to accomplish His purpose?
So why did these Jews reject the Gospel, the miracles, et. while the one saying these words, the Apostle Paul, and other Jews, recieve Christ? What made them to differ?
I believe it is the grace of God. That, indeed, for a sinner to have repentance, it must be granted by God, and to believe, is a gift from God. And of course...if God were in His ways leading these Jews to repentance, certainly He would "heal" them, that is, forgive their sins.
I just don't see the tension or conflict in the text that you do. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
Do please explain this as not saying that the natural man is not separated from God because of their sin nature, from which total depravity springs.
Psalms 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. -
Psa 58:4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
If you take verse 3 literally, then you should take verse 4 literally. Do babies have poison like a serpent?
But if you read the whole Psalm 58 you see this does not apply to all men.
Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
So, if you read the whole Psalms 58, and do not pull out one convenient verse to fit your presupposition, you will see the Psalmist is contrasting the wicked to the righteous. Verse 4 says "the wicked". He is not saying all men are totally evil. And verse 3 is an exaggeration, just as verse 4 is. I have 8 children, and none of them could speak the day they were born, nor were they poisonous. This is hyperbole, very common in the Psalms.
Hyperbole:
1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.” -
Are you serious? Do you stay up at night thinking of these questions? They don't even merit debate. Why don't you start a thread on why the sky is not pink? -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
hyperbole or not, it does not take away from the thought that is being conveyed.
man is totally depraved, from the womb, and his actions are consistent with that of a serpent, lies are poison, and they speak lies as soon as they can.
now, the lie doesn't have to be about not dipping a hand in the cookie jar, or stealing chicken from the neighbor's chicken farm.
a deadlier, more poisonous lie is when false teachers and false prophets come and teach lies to God's children who are likened to innocent children and lambs who are easily led astray.
in God's word, that is sometimes equated to murder.
another lie is to credit man with what he is not, and refuse to credit to God what is due Him.
I pray, in all good intention, that you will realize all these in God's own due time. -
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The difference is that I recognize God's work in sending Christ, the apostles, the Holy Spirit, the church and the scriptures as being divine help that is sufficient to bring men to faith. Though resistible, it is still sufficient. You all continue to debate me as if I don't believe God must intervene because you neglect to acknowledge the sufficiency of His intervention already. -
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Praying could make the same difference that Moses' prayer for the Israelites made. God withheld his wrath and was patient with them, showing them mercy.
Yes, sometimes a man refuses, sometimes he doesn't...the point is that it is the person's choice. God has given him all he needs to come, but he must be willing. With us, prayer has the potential to bring change, but in your system it matter's not...it has already been determined.
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