I would be satisfied just to discuss the difference between death passing to all men and that which death is replaced by, Sin.
Its kind of like people thinking we are saved by faith through grace alone.
God bless.
Is Original Sin Doctrine Found in Bible?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, Feb 17, 2018.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
[12] Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—[13] for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. [14] Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. (Romans 5:12–14 ESV)His over-arching point here is that even though there was no Law between Adam and Moses--and, therefore, no sins being counted--death still occurred. His argument is, then, that Adam's sin is counted as our sin (or passed on to us) and the evidence is that all between Adam and Moses (except one) die. How can death happen when sin isn't counted and the wages of sin is death? Because Adam's descendants die because of Adam's sin.
That's Paul's argument here. Others have coined the term "Original sin," but whatever you call it, Paul generates the concept here. What is more, if we reject the argument about the "Federal Headship" of Adam and his sin (guilt and propensity) being passed on to us, then we must also abandon the concept of the Federal Headship of Christ and His righteousness being counted as ours, too. So, this doctrine of Paul's is abandoned with great consequences and at great peril.
The Archangel
PS. I didnt' read the entire thread. -
I am following you, but Paul is repetitious with this principle, "All have sin; all do sin." With or without the Law, we sin--not because we have "sinned in Adam," but because we all actually sin. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
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Quite true, if we die because we sin no babies could die.
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Adam very nature was sinless, but corrupted to then being sinful, and ALL save for Jesus have now received that very sin nature passed unto us as due to the fall! -
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All babies are born in a state of being sinners, deserving hell, But God in his mercies can save them to Heaven! -
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What is original sin?
Where would you find yourself on understanding it? -
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And you really see Jesus having exact same human nature as we all have, so there was something within Him that would be able to have entertained and lusted and thus commited the sin act, as we all have that, being born with wicked and evil hearts! -
What is he then when saved , in your opinion -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Paul uses the Aorist in his argument, pointing to a single event (ie. Adam's sin), not multiple events (ie. everyone sinning in and of themselves). Second, "through" is translating δια + the genitive, and is the proper translation. But, the idea of "through" is instrumental as in death happens because of sin.
Here is Leon Morris' take on it:
The aorist points to one act, the act of Adam; we would expect the present or the imperfect if the apostle were thinking of the continuing sins of all people. Paul says that all sinned in Adam, not in imitating him (cf. Bruce). And it ignores the context with its strong insistence on the sin of one man (not all of us) as the cause of the trouble.What is more, Paul's argument in v. 18-19 leaves no doubt:
Leon Morris, The Epistle to the Romans, The Pillar New Testament Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI; Leicester, England: W.B. Eerdmans; Inter-Varsity Press, 1988), 231–232.
[18] Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. [19] For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. (Romans 5:18–19 ESV)Whether one calls it "Original Sin" or something else, the historic doctrine of Original Sin is exactly what Paul is detailing here.
The Archangel -
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
or Adam, physical death , Jesus spiritually alive -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
I do not hold Limited Atoinement neither Predestination
Neither would Paul contradict scripture Eze.
Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
So where is the explantion needed. ? -
There is nothing in Christ that would have entertained sin. I'm not sure why you think anyone is saying otherwise, or how you came to this conclusion from my statements. Scripture tells us that Christ had the same nature as we have. The reason you reject Paul is not because you believe he was Catholic but because you have developed/adopted a philosophy that demands human nature being changed at some point in time (something foreign to Scripture, as evidenced by your inability rely upon Scripture).
Scripture teaches us that Christ became flesh and shared in OUR humanity - not some humanity foreign to human nature (to OUR human nature). This is why, according to the Bible, that Jesus is qualified to be OUR High Priest.
Our nature in and of itself is not sin. James teaches (plainly, I thought until now) that sin is birthed when we give in to temptation, that temptation focusing on the desires of our human nature. Scripture teaches that Jesus also had a human nature with human desires. He desired (in the flesh) not to suffer. He became hungry, thirsty. But He (not according to your philosophy but according to the Bible) remained obedient to God and did not do his will (the will of the flesh) but the will of God.
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