Kathryn here's another illustration.
"For by plane which you boarded through faith, you arrived here, but you were not the pilot though your plane had a pilot, and all you could do is sit in one of the passenger seats, so you have nothing to boast about."
The question is this, What really transpired?
The plane was available to you, and you knew your destination, and you knew that there was nothing you could do to fly the plane, and you contributed nothing to the effort, so you could not boast about doing anything, yet you arrived because you had Faith to get on the plane.
No one held a gun at your head and forced you to get on board the airplane, you did it out of faith! But if you did not have the faith to board the plane, you would not have made the trip, so what got you from point A to point B? Your FAITH, everything else was already in place, already done for you....and THAT IS GRACE!
Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE!
That is parallel to:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and not of your self, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."
I hope this helps you to understand!
Is Prayer Necessary for Salvation?
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Kathryn, Mar 21, 2004.
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Our initial justification is a work of God. Not anything that we can ever contribute to, but only something that we can participate in. -
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1
Scripture teaches faith, hope, and charity are gifts from God. It doesn't teach that it is our action in response to existing Grace. Scripturally, our response is to knock on door, which is Jesus Christ, open the door, repent to God for our sins and be baptized. Our response is to accept or reject the gift of faith. God wanted us to have freewill. Faith is not our response, it is a gift from God. We accept the gift or not.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Ephesians 2:8 -
DHK: Is prayer necessary for salvation?
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Kathryn,
Once again you are deceived. Faith is the human response to Divine truth. The truth about things not seen.
Faith is the acceptance of truth while lack of Faith is the rejection of truth.
Faith is the substance of what we hope for, the evidence of what we cannot see.
We cannot see what we believe exists, but we have faith that it does exist! For example, Jesus said, "...Whosoever believeth in Him shall have everlasting life". That is but a promise of something that we cannot see, but we hope it is true, so we have faith that provides the substance of what we hope for which is, fulfillment of Jesus promise to us.
We have nothing to offer but faith as the substance of what we hope for.
Our faith is also the only evidence that we can offer as proof that what we hope for is real.
Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! God made man with the innate ability to have faith! Man can have faith in virtually anything, a chair, a car, a spouse, children, his own abilities to do a wide variety of things such as skiing, playing golf, driving a car, etc.,
Faith in God is not a gift from God but is one more thing that man can, and in order to be saved must have. Granted, Faith in God is the most important faith that man can have, but it is not the only faith that man can and must have. To define faith as a gift of God is quite simply incorrect.
Ephesians 2:8 does not say that faith is the gift of God, but that "been saved" is the gift of God. Look at the context which is Eph 2:1-10 the context is that salvation is the gift of God, and not Faith! Salvation is what God gives to those men who believe in (have faith in) Him. -
Kathryn,
DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.
As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though. -
Yelsew: You say:
Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE!Click to expand...
Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved!Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God -
Originally posted by Kathryn:
The bible says it is a gift from God:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of GodClick to expand...
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. -
Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Kathryn,
DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.
As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.Click to expand...
The Bible says that no man has seen God face to face, and lived.
Even when Christ was on earth, concerning baptism Jesus baptized no one, only his disciples baptized.
But now Jesus is not here in person.
So tell me: Have you ever seen God baptize anyone?
Have you ever seen God being the recipient of anyone's baptism?
Is baptism always done by a man?
Is the recipient of the baptism always a man (mankind meaning inclunding women)?
If the answer is yes here, Adam, then it is a work of man and not of God. Man does it. Man receives it. It is a work of man and not of God. God commands it, but God isn't doing it. Man is doing it, carrying out the command of God. Therefore it is still man's work. A relgious work, yes, but the work of a man, nevertheless. Works have no place in God's economy of salvation. If they do in your understanding of salvaton, then you are not saved, for one can only be saved through grace, by faith, without works. You either believe the Bible or you don't.
DHK -
Originally posted by Brother Adam:
Kathryn,
DHK and Yeslew2 insist that something like baptism is a work of the law, done by man, instead of a work of God that man merely participates in, thus baptism cannot be tied in anyway with redemption, as you and any other liturgical church sees it.
As you can see from DHK's post it is the application of the head knowledge to the heart that they believe saves, and the normal means of doing this is through prayer. You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.Click to expand... -
You will never get them to say "yes" to your question though.Click to expand...
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Adam: Thanks for your input. As far as baptism. This is my take on it. It seems many here are confused like John the Baptist when John couldn’t imagine why Jesus Christ would want him to baptize Him.
Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
Jesus understood how His baptism would be different. The Father and Holy Spirit did the real work. Jesus spiritually died, was buried, and was raised and was declared the Father’s Son. But of course the spiritual is not considered real by many here. Jesus showed those who believe in Him what happens when we are baptized. He also taught there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. I am usually told here that Jesus’ baptism was different. Don’t expect the trinity to show up at anyone's baptism. But this is what faith is. Thank God, when one suffers [it to be so] and Christans just obey Jesus and are baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, as Jesus submitted Himself, it is the same one Baptism as Jesus Christ. We spiritually die with Jesus, and rise with Him, and are born again. Those who only had John's baptism of repentance, needed to be baptized into Christ's baptism, and be born again.
It is interesting, but sad, all the different ideas on salvation here. Prayer, repentance, lifting our hearts to God, baptism are all Christian works, which means it's Christ working with us. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing anyone can brag about or take credit for. Those who do the will of the Father will be saved by Grace through faith. -
DHK says: It is not the faith that is the gift here; it is the salvation.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
DHK: Since you disagree with me, are you agreeing with Yelsew?:
"Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE! "
" Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "
The subject of the thread is : Do you believe prayer is necessary for salvation? How about your answer. Can anyone be saved without raising their hearts to God and repenting? -
Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK says: It is not the faith that is the gift here; it is the salvation.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Click to expand...Faith, hope, and charity, are all gifts from God.Click to expand...
What is hope? Do you hope that you will have a good day? A good week? What kind of things do you hope for? When you hope that you will have a good day, is that hope a hope that is a gift of God? No. Neither is the hope that is in us when we hope for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is a hope that is born out of the study of Scripture, and also of our personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not a gift in the sense of the gifts of the spirit. It is not a gift in the senst that it is given to Christians, and not to those that don't believe. Every person has hope; every person has faith; every person has love. The difference is the object. What is the object of you faith; the object of your love; the object of your hope. The object of my love is Jesus Christ. He is my hope. I put my faith in Him.
Salvation is also a gift.Click to expand...
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
DHK: Since you disagree with me, are you agreeing with Yelsew?:
"Faith is your action in response to the existing GRACE! "Click to expand...
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
" Faith is not a gift of God, it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "Click to expand...
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--Receive Him (as a gift). How--by faith (believing on his name.
DHKClick to expand... -
DHK:
You seem to agree with Yelsew about salvation.
" Faith is not a gift of God , it is a requirement placed upon man by God in order for man to be saved! "
However, faith, hope and charity are gifts from God, and the greatest of the gifts is love.
1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Remember there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism.
What about the necessity of prayer in salvation?Can anyone be saved without raising their hearts to God and repenting?
[ March 22, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ] -
DHK: The Bible teaches Christians to believe in the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything He said did, taught and commanded. Just believing and not responding and accepting the gospel is not what is taught in Holy Scripture.
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Jesus Christ supplies all our needs for salvation. Because of freewill we accept or reject his gifts. We can accept or reject the gifts of faith, hope, and love. Faith doesn't come from me, it comes from God. Big difference.
And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Philippians 4:19 -
Originally posted by Kathryn:
DHK: The Bible teaches Christians to believe in the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ. Everything He said did, taught and commanded. Just believing and not responding and accepting the gospel is not what is taught in Holy Scripture.Click to expand...
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The gospel is very plain and very simple: the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is the gospel by which you are saved. This is which Paul teaches and declares right here.
The word "gospel" simply means "good news"
The gospel is: the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.
A gospel is the Gospel of Matthew, or the Gospel of Mark, or the Gospel of Luek, or the Gospel of John.
To be saved there is only one gospel and that is given in 1Cor.15:1-4
Furthermore, Paul said:
Galatians 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
There is only one gospel. It is described in 1Cor.15:1-4. It is that gospel which saves. It is a gospel without works, and it is by faith alone. If you have any other gospel, a gospel that includes works, Paul says that you are accursed.
DHK -
It is not a gift. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."Click to expand...
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