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Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 18, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    It is God not me brother that says; "to him that knows to do good and does not do it to him it is sin JAMES 4:17 and in times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth is come calls all men everywhere to repent *ACTS 17:30-31. Are you making God a liar and do you not believe his Word?

    These are your words. They are not God's Word. It is God's Word that says God does not hold us accountable to sin when we do not know it is sin but when he shows us that something is sin he calls all men everywhere to repent and believe and follow his Word *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31.

    Correct as applied to sins we know are sin *JAMES 4:17l ACTS 17:30-31. Do you know what sin is *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 14:23? How does God's Word define sin in your view?

    As a Christian there is no scripture that says Paul had a sin that he could not get rid of. No where in 2 CORINTHIANS 12:6-9 does it say Paul had a sin that he could not get rid of. Your reading into the scriptures something they are not saying. A weakness is not a sin. Temptation is also not sin it is an enticement to sin. We have to endure temptation to the end through faith in God's Word in order to receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12. If you continue in known sin you reap what you sow. The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

    Absolutely, this is what the OP and this thread is teaching. Now who are God's Sheep? All those who hear and believe God's Word and follow it. Those who do not hear God's Word and do not follow it are not God's Sheep.

    You are making JESUS and God out to be a liar when JESUS says..

    JOHN 8:31-36
    [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
    [32], AND YOU SHALL KNOW THE TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL MAKE YOU FREE.
    [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
    [34], Jesus answered them, TRULY TRULY I SAY UNTO YOU HE WHO COMMTS SIN IS A SERVANT TO SIN.
    [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
    [36], IF THE SON SHALL MAKE YOU FREE YOU SHALL BE FREE INDEED.

    Notice here that these promises are condtional on continuing to believe and follow God's Word; Those who continue in God's WORD have the promises of

    1. KNOWING GOD'S TRUTH v32
    2. FAITH IN THE TRUTH MAKING THEM FREE v32
    3. FREEDOM IS FROM SIN NOT TO CONTINUE IN SIN v34-36

    and again......

    1 JOHN 3:6-10
    [6], WHSOEVER ABIDES IN HIM SINS NOT: WHSOEVER SINS HAS NOT SEEN HIM OR KNOWS HIM.
    [7], My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:
    [8], HE THAT DOES SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    [9], WHSOEVER IS BORN OF GOD DOES NOT SIN, BECAUSE HIS SEED REMAINS IN HIM AND HE CANNOT SIN BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD .
    [10], IN THIS THE CHILDREN OF GOD ARE MANIFEST AND THE CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL (sin): whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    and again......

    1 JOHN 2:1-4.
    [1], MY LITTLE CHILDREN, THESE THINGS I WRITE UNTO YOU THAT YOU SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    NOTE: This is very important as it states the very reason why JOHN is writting the epistle of all of 1 JOHN and that is that WE SIN NOT!

    [2], And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    [3], And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT WE KNOW HIM IF WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS .
    [4], HE THAT SAYS I KNOW HIM AND DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS IS A LIAR AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM.

    Sin is the transgression of God's LAW (10 commandments) *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7. God's LAW gives us the knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20. You break any one of them you stand guilty before God of sin *JAMES 2:8-12. The wages of sin is death to those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6; HEBREWS 10:26-27. Unless you are born again to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16 brother you cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:3-8.

    Now I believe God's Word how about you?

    No one is under the law if they have been forgiven for their sins through faith *ROMANS 8:1-4. We are only under the law if we stand guilty before God of breaking the law ROMANS 3:19. All the law does is give us a knowledge of what sin is *ROMANS 3:20 to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25 so that we are free to walk in God's Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31.

    I believe God's Word how about you?

    Those who continue in sin do not know God and the reward they lose is eternal life because those doing so reject the gift of God's dear son *MATTHEW 7:22-23; 1 JOHN 3:6-10; ROMANS 6:23; ROMANS 8:13.

    I believe Gods' Word brother how about you? Truly, truly I say unto you unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven *JOHN 3:5

    Hope this helps
     
    #141 3rdAngel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your better off following God's Word then the teachings and traditions of men that lead others to break the commandments of God. JESUS says all those who follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9
     
  3. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    No where in Romans 8 does it teach once saved always saved. This is a false gospel and one first preached in the garden of Eden to Eve in GENESIS 3:1-5. Now ROMANS 8 teaches that God's LAW is fulfilled in those who walk in God's Spirit v4 and those who fulfill the lusts of the flesh will die v13. This is in agreement with conditional salvation on believing and following God's Word. As it is written in HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27 and 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-12 all those who were once believers who fall away to a life of known unerpentant sin to become unbelievers will lose eternal life. Only those wno endure temptation to the end believing and following God's Word receive eternal life *JAMES 1:12; JOHN 3:15-21. Salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word. Ignoring God's Word my dear brother does not make it dissappear.

    God bless
     
  4. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    @3rdAngel :

    Why does your Faith say, "Seeking Christ" when to me, it's obvious that you are very well informed as to doctrine ( even though I happen to think that you are teaching in error )?
    No one I know who is "seeking Christ" would ever know what you do about the Bible.;)

    For example, 41 years ago I knew next to nothing about God's word, even though I had just recently believed on Christ during the preaching of His word.

    Perhaps you could have chosen "non-Baptist Christian" instead.
    Respectfully, would you care to explain how someone who is "seeking Christ" knows so much about God's word?:Sneaky
     
    #144 Dave Gilbert, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    And GOOD SAMARITANS which Jesus declared the example to follow.

    He didn't say these were fake acts of Loving God and Neighbor.

    There is no difference between your theology and that of a pharisee other than one wearing a Jewish jersey another a Christian one.

    They didn't care what good acts Jesus did, they merely claim it was act of the devil. What was Jesus' comback? It wasn't well I am God ergo chosen as righteous and you are not chosen therefore you cannot do good.

    Instead his comeback was if I am doing GOOD THINGS by virtue of the devil than the house of Satan is divided against itself.

    He is answering THE EXACT same accusation you throw on everyone who does good but is not of your particular belief.


    Its the same bigotry of some racist or nazi, Oh well he's a jew so he can't possibly be good, any act of kindness from a black man is just a fluke his motives aren't truly good. All the accusations against one another comes from the same branch of filth.

    Whole point of Jesus pointing out a Samaritan who was different ethnic and religiously which is a shock to the pharisees because to them "wait a minute you have to be CHOSEN to do anything good".
     
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Well that is not true. What are you talking about? Where did I post my faith says seeking Christ? If I did not say the things you claim, why do you pretend that I have? You post your words which are not God's Word. You have only been provided God's Word which are not my words but Gods, yet you do not believe them neither will you respond directly to the scriptures in the post which share Gods Word with you only in love. If I share God's Word with you why do you not believe them? They are Gods Words not mine therefore it is God you do not hear. In response you only provide your own words to argue with Gods. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.
    God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow him *JOHN 10:1-4; 26-30. Many do not hear God's Voice (the Word) because they are not His Sheep.
    Faith comes by hearing and heaing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17. If we do not know God's Word we cannot have faith in something we do not know. How can you know anything about the scriptures when you do not know the scriptures? You cannot. How can you have faith without the Word? You cannot. God's Spirit works through the Word leading us to Christ (the living Word) that we might be forgiven through faith *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

    Hope this helps.
     
  7. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I think he is talking about your profile, it says "Seeking Christ" I'm sure you can change it if you want.
     
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  8. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    Those who do not hear His words, have not been given "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, Matthew 13:10-11 )
    Also, please see John 8:47.

    I "hear" them just fine, but I did not always completely understand them.:)
    Faith comes to who ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )?
    Also, what kind of "hearing" would that be?

    Physical, spiritual ( "hearing" with spiritual "ears" ), or both?
    Believers are not forgiven because of their faith.

    They are justified ( shown to be just in the sight of God and men ) by that faith ( Galatians 3:24, Romans 5:1 ).
    Their faith is the evidence of that forgiveness ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means by which they are saved.
    It doesn't.;)

    As for where I see your faith described as "seeking Christ", look at your picture:
    It says, "Joined: August 15, 2019"
    " Messages: 80 "
    " Likes Received: 2 "
    " Faith: Seeking Christ "

    I wasn't sure if you selected that on purpose, or by accident, but I took it as accurate and decided to ask my questions based on that.
     
    #148 Dave Gilbert, Aug 27, 2019
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  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Oh thanks brother. I thought he was trying to respond to my posts and the scriptures in them. I think I will leave the profile as it is. Seeking Christ means to seek JESUS through His Word :Wink. It is sad however that very few hear His Voice (the Word).

    God bless
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    If you hear God's Word you would believe the scriptures sent only in love and as a help to you. Do you believe God's Word?
    It is God's Word not mine that was posted earlier. You said you hear His Words but you ignored God's Word when ROMANS 10:17 was posted. Do you believe God's Word? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We have no faith when there is no Word. Dave how can you believe in something you do not know? No Word no Faith. Do you hear God's Word?
    Your post here is very confusing to follow here Dave. You do know that it is God's forgiveness that leads us to being justified before God and this is done through believing (faith) his Word right *1 JOHN 1:9; EPHESIANS 2:8-9; JOHN 3:15-21; GALATIANS 2:16? None of the scriptures you porvide here support what you are claiming. Yet they do indeed support what I am sharing with you..

    ROMANS 5:1-2 [1], Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: [2], By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

    How are we justified? The very scripture you posted supports what I is being shared with you. We are justified by faith in God's Word.

    Do you believe hear His Voice (the Word)?
     
  11. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I realize that I indicated earlier in this thread that I was not intending to participate, but you've brought up several points I thought needed to be addressed.
    I've decided to reply to your questions above in case there are any readers who are able to follow my answers. ;)

    Of course.
    Do you?

    Romans 8:29-30.
    Romans 9:14-18.
    Ephesians 1:4-5.
    Ephesians 2:1-10.
    2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
    Psalms 65:4.
    John 6:37-44.
    John 8:43-47.
    John 10:26.
    John 17:2.
    Philippians 1:29.
    I didn't ignore it.
    I asked you questions about it.

    It's only one verse among 31,101 in the AV..
    Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Who does that faith come to ( Romans 10:8, Jude 1:3 )?
    What kind of "hearing" is it?
    To whom is the word of salvation sent ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 )?
     
    #151 Dave Gilbert, Aug 27, 2019
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  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    I cannot.
    Please see 1 John 2:20-27.
    Yes, I do ( John 8:47 ).
    I can see that.
    Believing is the result of being saved, not believing is the result of not being saved ( John 3:18, John 10:26 ).
    ).
     
    #152 Dave Gilbert, Aug 27, 2019
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  13. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    That's because you misunderstand them.
    By faith.
    The faith "of" Jesus Christ ( Galatians 2:20, Galatians 3:22 )
    I agree.
    God's children are justified by faith in His words, and by faith in His Son's blood.
    Yes.
    Do you?

    If you did, you would believe these:

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
    ( John 5:24 ).

    " And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." ( John 6:39 ).

    Do you believe that everyone who believes has ( present tense ) everlasting life?
    Do you believe that Christ will lose none of the ones His Father has given to Him?
     
  14. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    This thread will be closed sometime after 2 AM Pacific.
     
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    If you believe the scriptures posted in this OP and thread what do you think they mean? I love the scriptures you posted here what do you think they mean?

    This is simply a distraction and and a means of not addressing the scriptures in the posts previously provided to you that disagree with your teachings. No you did not address my earlier post and the scriptures or the questions asked of you. You simply deflected. You do not have to answer my posts or the scriptures provided that disagree with you if you do not wish to just say so as I am sure we both have better things to do.
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    God's Spirit works through the Word of God not outside of it *JOHN 6:63; ROMANS 10:17
    If you hear God's Word you would believe the scriptures shared with you but it seems you do not *JOHN 3:34; JOHN 10:26-27.
    Nope. It is God's Word not mine that says you cannot believe if there is no Word about being saved *ROMANS 10:17
    God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word)
     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not really what do you think they mean and how do they relate to what you were quoting from? They do not.

    I agree. I thought you were trying to argue we are justified before faith?

    Well said! :) What about being sanctified?

    Yes I believe them. They are saying if we BELIEVE God's WORD (present tense is BELIEVING in the now) we have eternal life. We do not receive eternal life however until we endure temptation to the end *JAMES 1:12. Now let me ask you a question. If I believed God's Word yesterday and today I no longer believe and follow God's WORD but returned to a life of known unrepentant sin do I have eternal life *The answer to this question is found in HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27.

    Yes I believe them. Now who is are these scriptures referring to BELIEVERS (present tense) or someone that believed yesterday and does not believe today *HEBREWS 6:4-8?

    Indeed. The problem here for you though and the difference in our beliefs is that these scriptures are in harmony with what I believe and presenting here. Those who are God's are those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD always present tense. Where as God's Word teaches that those who believed yesterday and do not believe today *HEBREWS 6:4-8 have chosen to become unbelievers and God's promises are conditional from GENESIS to REVELATION on believing and following Gods Word.

    Now let me ask you a question if someone believed and followed Gods Word yesterday returns back to a life of known unrepentant sin and no longer believe and follow God's Word are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-27?
     
    #157 3rdAngel, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  18. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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