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Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Aug 18, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Is salvation conditional on choosing to believe and follow Gods Word?

    Hi all, I am not Arminian or Calvinist. I only believe and follow God's Word.

    I was just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines if we have saving faith or not. These scriptures suggect that salvation and God's promises are condtional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

    THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

    OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

    IF (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

    We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

    GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

    Consequences for not believing and following...

    GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

    EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

    Blessings for believing and following...

    EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

    LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

    LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

    There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

    ..............

    NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

    IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

    God's forgiveness is conditional...

    I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

    MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

    MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

    JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

    JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

    JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

    God only hears those who are following His Word...

    JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

    JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

    JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

    JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

    JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

    JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

    Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

    ............

    QUESTIONS

    Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
    Q2 What is saving faith?
    Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?

    Blessings
     
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Q1 WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE IN GOD?

    Applications to believe and not to believe

    G4102
    Πίστις; pistis word use; OF; TO; THE; ASSURANCE; BELIEF; FEDELITY; From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence ; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

    G4100 πιστεύω; word use is to BELIEVE; TRUST; DO NOT BELIEVE; DID NOT; COMMITTED; Greek word meaning pisteuō From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit ; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

    ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 3:15-16 (SBLGNT)
    15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. 16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    To believe translated here is in the present tense verb of doing belief and can be translated; as BELIEVE (present tense), CONTINUING TO BELIEVE AND ACTIVELY BELIEVING

    John 3:15-16 (YLT)15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

    The continuing nature of saving faith is underscored by the use of the present tense of the Greek verb pisteuō (“believe”) throughout the gospel of John (cf. 3:15-18, 36; 5:24; 6:35, 40; 7:38; 11:25-26; 12:44, 46; 20:31; also Acts 10:43; 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22; 4:5; 9:33; 10:4, 10-11). If believing were a one-time act, the Greek tense in those verses would be aorist.

    In fact, the most famous verse in the entire Bible uses a present tense verb that may be translated, “whoever continues believing in him” may have eternal life………….

    G4103 πιστός; pistos word use FAITHFUL; BELIEVING; (active faith present tense) From G3982; objectively trustworthy ; subjectively trustful: - believe (-ing, -r), faithful (-ly), sure, true.

    G544 ἀπειθέω; word use is to BELIEVE NOT; DO NOT BELIEVE; DO NOT OBEY; DISOBEDIENT; UNBELIEVING; OBEY NOT; Greek word meaning is apeitheō From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

    G543 ἀπείθεια; word use is UNBELIEF; DISOBEDIENCE Greek word meaning ἀπείθεια; apeitheia From G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious): - disobedience, unbelief.

    G570 ἀπιστία; word use use is UNBELIEF; DISOBEDIENCE Greek word meaning ἀπιστία; G570 apistia; From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

    G545 ἀπειθής; word use is to be DISOBEDIENT Greek word meaning G545 ἀπειθής; apeithēs From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3982; unpersuadable, that is, contumacious: - disobedient.

    G571 ἄπιστος; word use means to be FAITHLESS; UNBELIEVERS; BELIEVES NOT; UNBELIEVING; THEM THAT DO NOT BELIEVE; Greek word meaning ἄπιστος; Apistos; From G1 (as a negative particle) and G4103; (actively) disbelieving, that is, without Christian faith (specifically a heathen); (passively) untrustworthy (person), or incredible (thing): - that believeth not, faithless, incredible thing, infidel, unbeliever (-ing).

    .............

    A1
    . To BELIEVE God means to rely upon God's Word to do what it says it will do and and follow what God say!
     
  3. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi Dave, faith is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. Did you have any thoughts to share in relation to the OP and the questions in the OP? Nice to meet you.
     
  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi MB, nice to see someone who reads the scriptures. Thanks for sharing with us. Did you have any comments in relation to the questions in the OP?

    God bless
     
  7. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    You asked the question, and I provided links to threads where forum members have posted on this very subject.:)

    But off-hand, I'd say, no grace = no faith.
    Since it is a gift, and not one that all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ), then God's favor is evidenced ( Hebrews 11:1 ) by a person having genuine faith that perseveres through all of their trials and tribulations ( Colossians 1:23 ).

    True faith comes from "hearing" the word of God ( Romans 9:17 ), and those who have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) will hear His words ( John 8:47 ).
     
    #7 Dave Gilbert, Aug 19, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2019
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  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi David thanks for sharing with us but you did not answer any of the questions posed in this OP. Did you wish to address the OP and some of the questions posed?

    Blessings
     
  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
    To believe He exist. To recognize He is the creator of all there is.
    Q2 What is saving faith?
    Trusting in Jesus Christ as savior and Lord
    Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?
    Salvation is free which means we do not have to earn it. All we have to do is believe it. Very few there be who actually follow Christ' example. None of us are deserving of the gift of Salvation. We are all sinners and still are sinners even after Salvation.
    Salomon wrote:
    Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
    MB
     
  10. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi MB, thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Some comments below...

    In JAMES 2:19 says that the devils believe God exists and he is the creator, why do you think they will not be saved?

    What does it mean to trust in Jesus Christ as saviior and Lord in your view?

    It is true as Soloman says in the scripture and Paul has said also, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God *ROMANS 3:23; ROMANS 3:10 before we come to JESUS and know God. Does this mean that we are saved to continue in sin or is salvation from sin?

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts MB.

    Blessings.
     
  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Devils and demons have already had there chance and they chose Satan

    It means that I trust in Him to provide the things He has promised those whom He has saved. It means I depend on Him for everything even my next breath.

    We are saved from Hell and sin. Our sins lives with in our flesh and we continue to fight our own flesh for dominance. I'm a realist I believe everyone sins and those who claim they don't make God out to be a liar. Like Paul I die daily to sin. There is no man who lives in there flesh and does not sin. I tried the best I could to over come sin once. Thought I was doing real good until I realized that Pride had over taken me..

    There is a thread about willful sin. I think it's funny that men would act like some of there sins are by accident. All sin is willful or we would not be sinning. We would all be like Christ. There are no accidents of sin only incidents. Take sinning with out knowing it. How would we know it was sin if it weren't for God's Word telling us so and it being written in our hearts... After telling us so then How is it we can do it by accident. Indeed we should know better but we still sin. Some blame God some blame Satan, few blame them selves.
    What wretched people we all are trying to over come what no one ever has over come We all have our own little favorite sins and we all commit them habitually.

    There is an old saying " Ignorance is bliss" but no one can claim ignorance because the Law is written on our hearts.
    MB
     
    #11 MB, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  12. Dave Gilbert

    Dave Gilbert Well-Known Member

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    I thought that the links provided would do that for me, since your OP essentially asks one of the same questions that was dealt with, in-depth, in those threads.
    I have no desire to interact further on this subject, as I feel it will be a recent re-hash of all the Scriptures that were presented in those links.


    I wish you well, sir.
     
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  13. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    What you really mean is you just can't win.
    MB
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Believing in God is not enough, James 2:19.
    The belief in God's gospel of Christ, Romans 1:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Corinthians 4:3.
    That is a loaded question being that it is more than one issue.
    Following is a work. Believing is a matter of accepting God's unmerited favor.
     
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. Being saved is the gift in Ephesian 2:8-9.
     
  16. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hi MB, did you read the scriptures in the OP? What do you think it means to "believe" in God according to the scriptures and what is the difference between how the devils believe *JAMES 2:17-20; 26? and how those who are saved believes JOHN 10? Do you know the difference between known sin and unknown sin *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31? Look forward to hearing your view.

    Blessings
     
  17. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Hello numbers nice to meet you :). Some comments and questions below for your consideration....

    Why is believing not enough *EPHESIANS 2:8 and what does it really mean to believe? Did you read the OP and the scriptures provided? What do you think the OP is saying?

    So we are talking about the same thing what is the gospel of Jesus Christ in your view *JOHN 1:1-4; 14; MATTHEW 4:4?

    Not at all, but why in your view did you think the question being asked is a loaded question?

    "Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?"

    What do the scriptures in the OP say in your view?
     
  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  19. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    Being saved is a gift of God through faith as we believe and follow God's Word. Why do you say that faith is not a gift of God?

    EPHESIANS 2:8 [8], For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;[9], not of works, that no man should glory.

    ROMANS 12:3 For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but so to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

    1 TIMOTHY 1:12 [12] And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;[13], Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. [14], And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. [15], This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. [16], However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all long-suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

    REVELATION 14:12 12, Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    How do we get faith?

    ROMANS 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    If there is no word there is no faith. The Word comes from God as a gift to all mankind.

    God bless
     
    #19 3rdAngel, Aug 21, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  20. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Brother did you read the OP? What do you think the OP is saying? Also, what does the OP say in relation to what it means to believe according to the scriptures? What is the gospel of Jesus Chrsit in your view?
     
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