. . . . So, obviously, you didn't even bother to click on the link to the article I posted. Oh, well. Take a moment, read it. It won't hurt you . . . . really!
is the Catholic Church officially now Apostate?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, May 24, 2013.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The problem is that Rome asserts things contrary to scripture but claims they are scriptural.
841 The Church's Relationship with Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and TOGETHER WITH US they ADORE THE ONE, MERCIFUL GOD, mankind's judge on the last day." - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd ed. p. 223
It does not take a theologian or a genius to see what Rome is saying here. -
Christ has redeemed all the world, even atheists.
John Paul II didn't do any better:
This is heresy.
The bolded statement in Francis's quote is where the RCC goes wrong. It is theologically wrong, and heretical.
Here it is again:
Jesus died on the Cross to redeem us all from sin.
That statement is false. To make it true it must say: "Jesus died on the Cross to provide redemption for all mankind. He has made it available. It is efficacious only to those that believe. We are not automatically redeemed by good works. We are not automatically made the children of God through his resurrection. One cannot enter into the family of God through baptism.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Entrance into the kingdom of God comes through faith and faith alone.
There are no works involved at all. These entire quotes are absolutely heretical and go against all that the Bible teaches. -
I think there is an enormous difference between what the Pope said (essentially, there is only one redeemer, Jesus Christ, who came to redeem the whole world) and what you want him to have said. Jesus came, and died, for us all, even me, regardless of my sins or my belief in Him, He still bore my sins, and those of all mankind. I don’t think we need confuse what the Pope said with Universalism- because it isn’t.
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“Almighty God, our heavenly Father, who of thy tender mercy didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world.”
I guess this sounds like universalism to you too? -
John the Baptist said, in John 1:29:
"Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world."
He does. But you must believe in him. It is only efficacious when one takes the action of faith, believing in his atoning blood. As John pointed to Christ as the sacrificial lamb, we like the OT saints who put their faith in sacrificing daily, must put our faith in the One ultimate sacrifice that can take away our sins. It is a gift, but the gift must be accepted by faith. If it is not accepted (and it isn't by atheists and Muslims, et. al.), then Hell awaits.
The statements that the Pope made are in direct contradiction to the RCC's belief in Hell. -
1John 2:2 Christ "Is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
in Christ,
Bob -
Actually, I could have (shoulda) included the scripture reference Cranmer drew his prayer from. -
In all seriousness - there is one guy on this board - who almost every time I quote the Bible - responds with a quote "of himself" and a complaint and then blames the text I quote on Ellen White.
Responding to objections could not get any easier than in that case.
in Christ,
Bob -
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Thus, in traditional NT theology, the “children of God” have been both redeemed and saved (justified), through Jesus’ sacrifice and God’s grace inducing their faith in his resurrection. It thus makes no sense to certain theologically trained ears to speak of Jesus “redeeming” the children of God, because he not only redeemed them through his death on the Cross, but he saved them through their faith in him as their redeemer, by the grace of God. By his use of those words (“children of God”) in the sense of “made in God’s image”, the Pope’s homily appears to conflate the latter (“made in God’s image”, which is a characteristic of atheists and believers alike, as the humans they both are) with the justification which believers achieve through their faith in Christ, through the grace of God extended to them. And as atheists well know, they do not have (or even ask) God’s grace so long as they profess atheism.
I happen to think that the Pope was at most chargeable with a loose use of theological terminology, however, Yeshua1, you think this is liberalism raising it's ugly head in the 'RCC'. -
Universalism ! -
So, your concern with the pope is over the Pope’s beliefs about Christ’s redemption for every human being, (and that is Catholic doctrine) and, as I understand the catechism, the Redemptive work of Christ was for the whole world which is only accessed personally by and through the graces dispensed by the Church to individuals who turn to her. However, one of those graces is the ability, by grace, to do good meritoriously. This grace can be dispensed to those who have not heard the gospel. You, seem to believe that the pope is saying that all who 'do good' are saved, even athiest. That is not what he was saying. Everyone being redeemed is not the same as everyone being saved. I encourage you to go back and read the one article (for which I provided a link) and one blog entry (for which I provided link). The latter was written by a non-Catholic. It really clears this up. -
Even in the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration, which the RCC erroneously teaches, the infant magically and superstitiously becomes "born again" which is regenerated. At that time he is both redeemed and saved. It is an event, not a process, as is easily demonstrated with the baptism of an infant, though not Biblically correct.
However, according to the Bible:
If one is redeemed, one is saved.
If one is saved, he is redeemed.
You cannot so easily dissect the two. There is no such thing as "being" redeemed. Either you are or you are not. Which are you? And why? How do you know? On what basis are you redeemed, or is one redeemed? That is the question one must ask. It is not on the basis of good works, and that is where the Pope is wrong. -
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But no matter - I am not at all complaining about your choice to run from these Bible texts and blame them on Ellen White.
You realize of course - that on a Baptist board - the Bible itself should carry more weight than "Thomas Cranmer".
1John 2:2 Christ "Is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
John 3:16 "God so loved the WORLD - yes really" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
1Peter 3 "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
John 16 The Holy Spirit is sent to "convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the arbitrarily select "few" of calvinism.
You may choose to run from these texts and blame all on Ellen White if you choose to continue doing that - you have free will after all.
in Christ,
Bob -
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Nothing is said here about redemption.
Here is what the Bible says about redemption. This is written by Peter and written to believers. Notice the "you," meaning believers.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
--We (believers) are redeemed with the precious blood of Christ.
That is the penalty that he paid for us, believers.
Why is it paid for believers? Because only believers have accepted it as beneficial, as efficacious.
The blood does not do an atheist or a Muslim any good, because he rejects it. They both reject the atoning sacrifice of Christ. Therefore the blood of Christ, that redemptive sacrifice does not cover them. It does NOT redeem them. It is only applicable to those who come to Christ. They alone are redeemed.
Christ has not redeemed the world.
That is universalism; something that the Pope has clearly stated.
Only those that have trusted in the shed blood of Jesus are redeemed.
Only they can say and make the claim that they are "the redeemed."
2. Baptism may get you wet; but it won't get you saved.
He said that (as you say) Christ has redeemed all (a serious heresy).
And that heretical definition of redemption is available to atheists simply by doing good works.
He is a universalist. He might as well grant Hitler and Stalin salvation post-mortem.
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