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Featured Is The Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ Biblical? Part 3

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 29, 2020.

  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    HEBREWS 1:5

    "For unto which of the Angels said He at any time: 'Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee...and again when He brings forth the First-born..." (also verse 6a).

    Here verse six holds the answer to the words in verse five (This day...). Here Paul says "again, when He brings forth the First-born". By using the Greek παλιν, Paul meant, "once more" (E Robinson; Greek-English Lexicon, p.586; J Parkhurst Greek-English Lexicon, p.453). Verse six clearly refers to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, a fact that no one one will dispute. With παλιν Paul wishes to connect verse six (the Second Coming), with verse five, which teaches the First Coming, or else the use of παλιν in verse six is superfluous. There can be no doubt that verse five refers to the Incarnation of Jesus Christ.

    HEBREWS 5:5

    "So also Christ glorified not Himself to be made a High Priest; but He that said unto Him, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee"

    Here we read of Jesus as our High Priest, where His appointment was not of Himself, but it is the Father Who said to Him, "This day...", Who appointed Him. This text ties in with the references in Acts and Hebrews 1:5, which both refer to the Incarnation of Jesus. It is highly improbable that the reference in Acts, and the one in Hebrews 1 would refer to Christ's Incarnation, whereas the reference in Hebrews 5, speaks of another time.

    It is further argued, that passages like John 3:13, and 6:62, which speak of "the Son of man" as coming from heaven, clearly indicate that Jesus must have been the Son in heaven before He came down. But, these Scriptures by no mean prove the Eternal Son-ship. The Title The Son of man is found in the book of Daniel in the Old Testament, chapter seven. This Title is used to describe the Messiah, something that Jesus was not prior to His birth. Now, had John 6:62, for example, read "What and if ye shall see the Son ascend up where He was before?"; then proponents of the Eternal Son-ship doctrine would have had a very strong text on their side. But nothing can be gained by them from the text reading Son of man. It is quite evident, that had Jesus wished to show that He was the Son prior to His Incarnation, then He would have said "Son of God", and not "Son of man". The former refers to His Deity (Divine Nature), whereas the latter to His Humanity (human nature), and which is a Title of the Messiah. It is like 1 Corinthians 15:47, where Paul's speaks of "the second man", Who is Jesus Christ, Whom he says "is the Lord from heaven". This reading which dates from the middle of the second century (textual evidence), has been corrupted to read: "the second man is from heaven", which has led to heresy, where it is claimed that Paul here teaches that Jesus was a heavenly man (that is, according to His human nature) before His birth from Mary. But Paul clearly says that "the second man is the Lord from heaven", like he says in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifest in the flesh". It never says in Scripture that "the Son (or, Son of God) was made flesh", but it clearly does say as we have seen in 1 Timothy 3:16, and in John 1:14, that "God became flesh"

    Scripture does say that "in the beginning was the Word". It also says that "God was manifest". And that Jesus is "the Lord (YHWH) from heaven". There is no doubt in my mind that the Son-ship of Jesus Christ, belongs to His Incarnation, prior to which He was not the Son. He assumed the Title Son, because at his Incarnation He took on a role where he became subject to God the Father, thus showing the perfect Father-Son relationship in the Godhead.
     
    #1 SavedByGrace, Sep 29, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Too many issues. Paul did not write Hebrews, the writer of Hebrews wrote, ". . . How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; . . ." Hebrews 2:3. The Apostle Paul had heard the Lord, the writer of Hebrews himself had not!
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you will find that on of the earliest Greek manuscripts, the Papyri 46, which dates in the 2nd century, has Hebrews in Pauls writings, after Romans, after which comes 1 Corinthians, Galatians, etc. Chapter 13:23, is Paul's words and style, "You should know that our brother Timothy has been released, with whom I shall see you if he comes soon"
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not surprised. The writer of Hebrews knew Timothy, Hebrews 13:23.
     
  5. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 5:5,6

    Couple of questions.

    What do you believe, the order of, is a reference of?
    What do you believe, glorified not himself to be made, means?
    How and when was he glorified to be made?

    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
    Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.


    Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. Thou, a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    Heb 5:9.10 And being made perfect, he became the author <first cause, see Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
     
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  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "He that said unto Him", that is The Father to Jesus Christ. You have already quoted John 17:5, which gives the answer. The Glory of the Father and that of the Son, is a joint Glory, something they shared from eternity past, "I had with thee before the world was", as in the Godhead. This "glory" Jesus "left aside" during His Incarnation, as Philippians 2:5-11 tells us, which He had "restored" after His Ascension.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus now knows the date and time of His Second Coming//
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    He always did, as Almighty God!
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    LIMITED Himself to not knowing it while here on earth though....
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    sometimes Jesus spoke or did things that pertained to His human nature, while other times, to His divine. He as the God-Man, fully God and fully Man (apart from the sinful nature), is a complete Mystery to the human fallen mind. How could Jesus, Who IS always Almighty God, which He could never cease to be; enter the womb of the Virgin Mary, and be born a baby? Beyond all human understanding!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I look at this as what Paul was describing in Philippians concerning Jesus, how he agreed to accept the limitations of what being a human would be, but always still also God!
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Did you not read the references? Where Yehwah says to Abraham, ". . . now I know,"? Genesis 22:12, noting John 1:18, that it was then the preincarnate Son.
     
  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Therefore wasn't it when the Father, glorified him again, that he was made to be high priest, the day the Father raised him out the dead and gave him glory? The day he, being raised, could die no more.

    He had just been dead for three days.

    For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.Heb 7:14-17

    Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

    When was be begotten to die no more, when death would have no more dominion over him?

    Wasn't it when he the became firstborn from the dead, one day to be, the firstborn of many brethren?

    Rather than at the incarnation?

    One more question.

    KJV John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
    YLT John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
    Acts 2:32,33 “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

    and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, < Did that have anything to do with Jesus being glorified again?

    Shall we say Anointed high priest?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    That is the only way you can understand it. Did God lie to Abraham when He said to him, ". . . for now I know"? In Genesis 22:12.
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    God cannot lie! The Hebrew adverb ʻattâh, is here in question. Does it always and only have the meaning "now"? According to the Hebrew Lexicon by Genesius, the meanings are, "at this time, now, already". It does not mean that only at THAT time that God knew Abraham feared Him. This is absurd, as it means that God is not "omniscient", something impossible! You simply cannot make an argument for anything based on the use or meaning of a word, especially when it is being translated from one language, to another. We also must take the broader picture of what the whole Bible has to say. Are you suggesting that God's knowledge is limited in any way?
     
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    I have already shown in the OP's, why I believe from the Scripture evidence that I have given, that the Sonship of Jesus Christ is Incarnational. I don't expect all to agree, but have yet to have read any real reason, why my position could be wrong.
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, God cannot and does not lie. (Such as Titus 1:2) I also do not believe in the error of open theism. I acknowledge the absolute omniscience of God the Father. It is my persuasion that the Son, who is the Word, who is both God and a different (John 1:2) Person than God, being the Son of God, can deliberately and truthfully limit some of His omniscience in direction of His Father, on behalf of His Father, as He explained in Acts of the Apostles 1:7, Mark 13:32, as in Genesis 22:12 per John 1:18. I only expect you understand this is how I make sense of this.
     
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ, after His Incarnation, was 100% God and 100% Man (apart from sin), Two Natures in One Person. There are times during His life on earth, that things that He said and did, pertain to His Divine Nature, and other instances, to His Human Nature. This is a Great Mystery, which we can never fully understand.
     
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