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Featured Is The Eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ Biblical? Part 3

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Sep 29, 2020.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    What does; "who is beginning, firstborn out of the dead, that he might become in all -- himself -- first," mean to you?

    What does out of the dead have to do with firstborn?

    whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it, Acts 2:24

    Robertson - pangs of death
    (τας ωδινας του τανατου — tas ōdinas tou thanatou). Codex Bezae has “Hades” instead of death. The lxx has ωδινας τανατου — ōdinas thanatou in Psalm 18:4, but the Hebrew original means “snares” or “traps” or “cords” of death where sheol and death are personified as hunters laying snares for prey. How Peter or Luke came to use the old Greek word ωδινας — ōdinas (birth pangs) we do not know. Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death. “Loosing” (λυσας — lusas) suits better the notion of “snares” held a prisoner by death, but birth pangs do bring deliverance to the mother also.

    Not only the early Christian writers but the Holy Spirit, also.

    Consider this thought.

    Ps 18:4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. and Acts 2:24
    There we can see the sins of men for all are ungodly and sinful, encompassing the Holy One with the need to be paid for by the death.

    Where else do we see birth pangs associated with corruption and sin of men that results in death?

    because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

    Even those with the Spirit, groan within themselves, a birth concept.

    How many times does a man need to be born again?

    My answer is two but my concept of the two will be different than yours and I understand that.

    BTW I believe the Word God became the Son of God in flesh and blood the Son of Man, because of the death H 2:6-9, when born of the virgin woman, Mary, and was born again, in flesh and Spirit 1 C 15:45,46, to die no more when raised out of the dead R 6:9 by God the Father G 1:1, R 8:11.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God did not learn anything new, as he always know everything period!
     
  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The term denotes “Special Privilege”, “Pre-eminence” , “Special Relationship”. This can be seen in Psalm 89, where God says of David: “Also I will make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth” (27). And of Israel as a nation, “Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Exodus 4:22).
     
  4. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    some people think that God's Knowledge is "progressive"!
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Is there any scripture that says or suggests Jesus had "two natures." Why would any "nature" He had not be only His nature.
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Heresy of Open Theism.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    One Person, with 2 natures, God and sinless human!
     
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    "Christ Jesus,who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:5-7)

    The Greek for "form" is "μορφή", which here denotes the "essential nature", and not simply the "outward form". Here we see that Jesus IS from all eternity, "in the very nature of God", and after His Incarnation, "took upon Him the very nature of man", sin excepted.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Lets see I ask for scripture and you parrot man-made assertion. Got it...
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does God have a nature, do we as humans?
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Good question, what is your own self study answer?
     
  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Special Privilege”, “Pre-eminence” , “Special Relationship

    I agree, Out of the Dead.

    Like this; Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9 To date the one and only, Yet

    but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again. Luke 20:35,36
    because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, (?The image of Rom 6:9 above and back to 6:5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of the rising again;) that he might be first-born among many (like him) brethren;

    I will ask one more time. Does the Holy Spirit speak, of the resurrection, as a birth?
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Yes to both
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Why do you say "essential nature" rather than "external appearance?"
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    you are confusing "first-born", with "begotten", two completely different words, meanings and uses!
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    because the Greek usage in the NT says so, regardless of the definitions given by Dr Thayer in his Greek lexicon. I have done a study on this word and its use in the 3 NT passages for myself
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The use of “morphe”, in Mark’s Gospel, will clearly show that the common meaning of the word was not used, but its philosophical use was employed in all three places used in the New Testament. Mark’s account of the post Resurrection events of Jesus Christ (which Luke’s Gospel has a more fuller account), tells us that Jesus “was manifested en hetera morphe (in another form)”, to the two disciples who were on the way to Emmaus (Luke 24:13).

    This is the only other place, in the entire New Testament, where the Greek noun, morphe is used, apart from its use twice in Philippians 2:6,7. In each place, the King James Version, as with most of the other versions, renders the Greek, by our English form. The New International Version has it form, in Mark’s use; and, very nature (footnote, in the form of, the form), in the passage of Philippians. It seems that the translator’s of the NIV saw a difference in the meaning of morphe, when it is used in Mark’s Gospel, and when Paul uses it in Philippians. As we shall see, there is no difference in the three uses of morphe, and that its use in Mark 16:12, gives us the real meaning of the word. I have chosen the use of morphe in Mark, as the starting point of showing what Paul, who had Mark as his companion, had in mind when he himself makes use of this noun in his Epistle to the Philippians.

    The noun morphe, can be traced back to the Greek poet, Homer, who used is simply when referring to the outward form. This is the common use of the noun, as it is so used in the Greek Version of the Old Testament, known as the Septuagint. The Greek-English Lexicon by Dr Joseph Thayer, has it defined, “the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance, (page. 418) which he gives as the meaning for all three uses. The reader will find that is meaning of morphe, is accepted in the majority of works written on the passage in Philippians. The use in Mark’s Gospel is hardly noticed. In the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, we read, “Mk.16:12…not in the transfigured corporeality of the risen Lord as one might naturally suppose, nor in the form of a gardener, in which He appeared to Mary Magdalene, but in the form of a traveller” (G Kittle, Vol.II, p.702). Dr Joseph Lightfoot, in his masterful work on the Greek of the passage in Philippians, has this to say of morphe, as used by Mark. “though morphe here has no peculiar force, yet schema would perhaps be avoided instinctively, as it might imply an illusion or an imposture” (Commentary on Philippians, page 131).

    Dr Lightfoot makes a very important point in Mark’s use of morphe, rather than the Greek word, schema. However, as we shall see, Mark’s use of morphe, is not in its common use. From Kittle’s it is clear that the external appearance, is what is meant, by Mark’s language. This conclusion is quite wrong, and the example of Jesus appearing to Mary, and to the two disciples, in Kittle, is a misunderstanding of the use of the force of the noun morphe. The account of Jesus appearing to Mary, is found in John’s Gospel, of one of Jesus’ post Resurrection appearances. We read that when Jesus began to speak with Mary, that she did not know (or recognise) that it was Jesus, at first (John 20:14). It is quite obvious, that this meeting took place very early in the morning, “while it was still dark”, as verse one informs us. We are not even told how far from Mary Jesus was standing, which would have made it difficult to know who she was speaking with. Add to this the fact, that the clothes that Jesus would have been wearing at this early in the morning, would have included a shawl wrapped around His head. This would have been the same as the account in the next chapter of John, when Jesus appears to some of the disciples who were fishing, which again, would have been very early in the morning, before day break. Which would explain why these disciples also could not recognise Jesus, "But when the morning had now come, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus (21:4). It should be noted, that the phrase, when the morning had now come, in the Greek, literally means, "dawn coming on and still dark" But, to assume that Jesus kept changing His external appearance, after His Resurrection, to those whom He appeared to, is without any warrant. If it might be said, that what I am saying here is only conjecture, then Luke’s account of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, will indeed satisfy any doubters.

    We must first of all return to the language of Mark 16:12, where we are told, that Jesus “appeared in another form”. For another, Mark uses the Greek, heteros, which has the meaning, to express, “a qualitative difference and denotes another of a different sort” ( W E Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p.60). Mark does not use the Greek allos, which also is used for another, but where its meaning is distinct. “Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort” (Vine, ibid). Allos, would have been the word used by Mark, had he simply wished to show that it was Jesus’ external appearance, that had changed. By using heteros, he clearly intended so show that the difference was more than “meets the eye”.

    Luke’s detailed account of Jesus’ meeting with the two disciples, is very important to our further understanding Mark’s use of morphe. In the twenty-fourth chapter of his Gospel, we have the account of a post Resurrection appearance of Jesus, to two of His disciples, who were on their way to the town of Emmaus. We take up the even from verse 13, where Jesus joins them. We here have a very interesting record as given by Luke, where he says, “But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him” (v.16). Here we read, that these disciple’s eyes were “restrained”, by the Holy Spirit, so that they could not “recoginse” that it was Jesus Who was speaking with them. In verse 31 we read, “Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him”. This account very clearly shows, that the external appearance of Jesus had not changed, except for the imprints of the nails on His hands and feet, and the opening in His side, where the spear had been thrust. If it was His external appearance that had been changed, to what it usually was, then there would be no reason for the Holy Spirit to have prevented these two disciples from recognising Jesus in the first place. It is also very clear from this account in Luke, that Mark’s use of morphe, could only be referring to a change in the essential character of Jesus’ body. It is only after Jesus’ Resurrection, that we read that “He vanished from their sight” (Luke 24:31), that is, He became invisible to them, as the Greek has it. Thus, we also read in John chapter 20, “Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you” (v.19). It says that the door of the room where the disciples where gathered, was shut, and yet Jesus came in through the shut door. “And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!”” (v.26). These instances clearly show that Jesus’ body, not His physical appearance, had changed after His Resurrection.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are we referring here to when Paul tells us that Jesus is the expressed visible image of the invisible God?
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    The three usages could all be external appearance.
     
  20. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this controversy. It is literally self-defining that the Word of God becomes the Son of God at birth.
     
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