Here is the problem as I see it. What you (JesusFan and P4T) see as a "given" wasn't seen as a "given" in the first century.
You are so used to the gospel being readily available to us that you consider the grace of its provision a "given" reality and thus presume that some greater work of grace is necessary.
You must understand that that the mystery of the gospel's truth wasn't even known to the apostles until after Christ's ascension and after Paul was called to go to the Gentiles and Peter had his dream with the white sheet. Prior to this, the gospel truth wasn't known to the world, but once it was made known it became the "power of God unto salvation." It is the means through which God's gracious appeal for reconciliation is made known to the world.
Once the gospel entered our world we were no longer "left on our own." We are now responsible for this truth and our response to it. Those who perish do so because they refuse to love this truth and so be saved. (ref. 2 Thess 2:10)
is there A Difference between Depravity and Inability of man?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jul 20, 2011.
Page 2 of 3
-
-
Grandma gets regenerated
Baby gets regenerated
Actor gets regenerated
Evil past president gets regenerated
-
You read, "No one can come to me unless they are enabled," and you think that means God must do some inward secret regenerative work of "irresistible grace" by which someone is made willing to believe the gospel, but that interpretation ignores the FACT that when John 6 was happening the gospel hadn't been sent into the world so as to draw all man to himself yet. In fact, the truth of Christ's true identity was being hidden from Israel (John 12:39-41) and hadn't been sent to the Gentiles as of yet. The means by which God would graciously draw men to reconciliation wasn't even sent until after he was raised up. (John 12:32) -
-
I never used the word "given" within the context you are using it, and no, it's not "exactly" your point as you make pretense, in fact, it's not your point whatsoever, as you try to force things said into a non-existent context. But I applaud your effort, as others might miss this, but not me.
I never "presumed" as you assume that some "greater" work of grace was necessary. Show me where I stated that without your "implication" excuse. Perhaps my understanding of Gods grace is simply "greater" than yours?
Don't put words in my mouth, OK? If I want to say a greater work of grace is necessary over and beyond, I'd just come out and say it plainly.
Gospel truth was known at Pentecost, not after the "white sheet" and not "after Acts 9." You are completely incorrect here.
After these events, the extension of Grace was known, not the Gospel. The Gospel was already known, i.e. the Death, Burial and Resurrection. It was preached at Pentecost. In this you clearly are incorrect, in that you say it was "known" later. The apostles got the Gospel right off, then they preached it, being emboldened by the Spirit to do so. Later? They saw the application of the Grace of the Gospel and extension of this truth.
Stop your condescension that I "misunderstand" and need you to help me. It's not necessary nor is it true, and quit pretending you know what I think things mean. You don't. You're assuming and flexing mod muscle, thinking I must bow to your assumptions in fear. I won't and you are clearly in the wrong, pretending you know what I think things mean.
Where in the world have I stated in this thread "No one can come unto me unless they are enabled?" Tell me and prove it or put a stop to it, OK? You talk in your replies as if you are quoting me, when you're not. Talk about total misrepresentation and paraphrasing. You're using that paraphrase against me? Go fetch a quote of me saying that or admit your fallacious accusation. Nowhere in this thread is this mentioned. I suppose you must add things so you can "win", no?
And...nowhere have I mentioned a thing about irresistible grace. Your bias toward thinking I'm a Calvinist by label bleeds through everything you say. So now you must add this too. Stcik to the facts wthout adding strawmen...
...I smell two strawmen.
Here is what I've said. One more time: We aren't arguing in the context of the first century, we are arguing in the context of right now. In other words, these things are a given right now, since we aren't arguing in the first century, where you would like to place us to prove some point of yours while adding and assuming what I've said in order to have an argument that concludes with you as some winner. Otherwise, you are incapable of sticking to what I've really said and to its context.
Whatever you want to eisegetically insert into that comes from you, not me.
- Peace -
-
-
-
It's not until Christ is lifted up that he draws all men to himself thus "enabling" them to come to him. Still today, someone can't come unless the gracious appeal of the gospel is carried to them through the means God has appointed.
-
So, in essence, God starts the ball rolling by calling us, seking after us, etc., but it is only they who put their faith to action(believing is faith IN action) that get salvation. I love these verses right here:
Deut. 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.
11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:
12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.
Here is another passage I love:
Psalm 40:1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
And finally:
James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
So what I am trying to get at is this. We will not want to seek after God by ourselves...or at least I didn't. I wanted to live my life my way. But, when God began drawing me, He changed my want to's and I began seeking after Him with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I would have never did any of this if He didn't first seek me out. People have it backwards when they say, "Boy, I'm sure glad I found the Lord!" Really? How did they find the Lord? He has never been lost. It was us who were lost, ruined, and undone, without hope in this world. He first, seeks us out, because we are the ones lost. So I am thankful that He found me, and not I that found Him. -
- Peace
also, I loved the phone illustration! -
So it was a "given."
- Peace -
ROFL.....that's perverted Winman......(I just can't help myself sometimes)... -
Seems that you make an "exclusion" case many times for the way God dealt with Jews back injesus Time, that His ways to harden them and to "elect" a chosen remnant would not refer to how he comtinued to move and elect out a chosen people throughout History, but JUST to those times!
That when we read the Gospels its like you do see God working about same way as cal says that he does today, but say "just that way back than"
When did it say in Bible that he changed His ways in dealing with peoples from Gospels to pentacost to Epistles etc?
IF people are dead in sins, sinners, wouldn't same process to elect and apply grace and save work regardless?
just curious , do you hold that sinners have to have God apply coomon grace to them, and then they have means to hear and respond by faith, or do you hold that we can summon up faith by/in ourselves when we hear the Gospel? -
-
God blinded the Jews so as to accomplish redemption for the world. Israel, in their hardened rebellion, killed Jesus and they were cut off so as to make room for the Gentiles. See Romans 11. -
In the OT God hardened or blinded Pharaoh from the clear truth in order to accomplish the first passover. In the same way, in the NT God is hardening Israel from the clear truth in order to accomplish the real Passover. It all makes since when you read Romans 8, 9, 10, and 11 as one whole passage that flows together. Paul explains it all very clearly. Paul taught that God was patient with Israel for years ('holding out his hands to them' Rm 10:21), but they were unwilling, so they are being "cut off", "bound over to disobedience," "hardened," but are they cut off for good? Heaven FORBID! This is "temporary" and Paul has hope for their salvation as a result of his ministry to the Gentiles and the Jews growing jealous (Rm 11:14). This is not about God hardening certain reprobates and saving a select number of people. It's about God blinding Israel in their rebellion so as to ingraft the gentiles, but even that blinding process is an act of mercy, because in being "cut off/hardened" they may be provoked to envy and saved. Paul summarizes this truth at the end of the discourse saying, "God bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all."
-
We're talking in context of believers being able to understand these "givens." We were talking about the apostles abilities and knowledge. Not the ones you bring in to bolster your point, which is yet another strawman friend.
Your switching gears fast, and I think I hear grinding. :laugh:
- Peace -
Its nearly impossible Skan.
Page 2 of 3