have seen both views expressed here, same thing, different term?
is there ANY Difference between isreal was renamed as Church, or Church replaced isre
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Oct 26, 2011.
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So the OT promises made to future isreal to come was realing meant for Church, its just that God calls it now Isreal or is it the Church? -
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The Abrahamic Covenant was a promise to spiritual Israel (all people would be blessed by Abraham, etc). Thus, there is not a promise for anyone outside of spiritual Israel. -
I think of it as 'the enlargement of Israel', to include all the children of the heavenly Zion, who are Israelites indeed:
26 And he said, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Shem......
27 God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...... Gen 9
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54 (see also Gal 4:26,27; Ps 87)
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos 1:10 -
The actual topic of this thread seems to be concerning traditional dispensationalism, and progressive dispensationalism. "Church" is not a "name"; it is a description of an assemble, whether referring to each of our local "churches" where we assemble to worship God and build ourselves up for the ministry of Christ, or collectively, i.e. the "universal" church referring to every one born again from the OT saints to those end times folk living through the periods described in Revelation.
Paul makes it clear that when you refer to "Israel" you are not referring to "all" the descendants of Israel, Romans 9:6, but only to those God chooses to have mercy upon. In Romans 11:5 we see where God chooses some Jews who then become "all Israel" but hardens others.
Therefore, God chose corporately a "people," descendants of Abraham, and then during the period between the Abrahamic promise and the inauguration of the New Covenant, he placed individuals into that "chosen group" and collectively they are referred to as "all Israel" or children of the promise. But before that Abrahamic Promise, before creation, God had chosen corporately His people as those who are redeemed by His Chosen One, His Redeemer, His Lamb of God. Thus, the OT saints received the promise only after Christ provided the means of their justification and redemption, see Hebrews 11. So we do not have two groups, Jews and Gentiles, Israel and the Church, as traditional dispensationalism teaches, but one group that includes Jews and Gentiles "in Christ, for there is no difference. Paul does a pretty good job of laying this all out in Galatians chapter 3.
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:28-29) -
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However, the Jewish "remnant" is being presently saved during that time (Rom. 11:5) as well as Gentiles but as for this "Israel" she remains "enemies of the gospel for your sakes" UNTIL the fullness of the gentiles be come in. -
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Also though, he seems to be saying that there was coming a future time, "end days" "time of Jacobs folly" "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" where God would then deal with national isreal, as ALL jews alive at that time would receive messiah at his return! -
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- what is the future of the Israelites since they rejected their Messiah?
Pretty straight-forward IMO. -
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Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, answers that for us Gentiles:
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the
apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid.
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham,
of the tribe of Benjamin. - Romans 11:1
Pretty straight-forward. He is speaking of genetic Israel.
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That's about as early a one as I can come up with..... -
Were these Jews correct in this statement? -
Sect of Judiasm called the Nazarenes. Paul was on his way to arrest
some of these Nazarenes when Jesus appeared to him and he was saved.
The Gospel was first delivered unto the (genetic) Israelites. The 12
disciples/apostles were dedicated to preaching the Gospel to the (genetic)
Israelites (even Matthias who replaced Judas). The Gospel of Grace for the Gentiles
was revealed unto Paul. Paul was the lone Apostle to the Gentiles (Rom 11:13,
1 Tim 2:7, 2 Tim 1:11, etc.). For a time the Nazarenes and the Gentile believers coexisted,
until [IMO] 70AD, when all hope of (genetic) Israel ushering in the return of Jesus
and the establishment of the Kingdom was lost. This put (genetic) Israel "on hold" as the Gentile Bride of Christ
(ie: "Church") continued to increase, and will... "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in".
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! - Romans 11:33 -
Grammatically speaking, the phrase "fulness of the Gentiles" is equated with "all Israel will be saved" with the word "in this way" (ουτως). I see no chronological marker but simply a logical marker of explanation.
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