How can rome prove that her claims to intreprete/reveal the bible, and of being true church on earth is superior to same calims made by JW/Mormions though?
Is there any historical evidence for the Baptist position on Baptism?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Wittenberger, Jul 21, 2012.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The reference you quote can just as easily be attributed to a number of passages in the Old Testament where the same words are stated. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The whole volume of Old Testament scriptures had not been settled by the apostles or Christ as they accepted the Jewish canon which excluded the deuterocanical books. You cannot deny the Jews rejected the deutercanical books as part of the canon of Old Testament scriptures and Jesus and the apostles embraced what the Jews had canonized.
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Thinkingstuff Active Member
Here is the selection
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If you can quote it then why can't you document your quotes? You call that scholarship???
If I remember right, some time ago I quoted some references without giving the full documentation and I was scandalized for not do it and my "scholarship" was put in question? I see we walk on a one way street with Catholics - their way! -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
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Point out that the context of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 is Paul laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of Scripture and tradition in his ministry as a bishop.[/quote]
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
First, Timothy is the pastor of the church at Ephesus.
Secondly, one must keep in mind that this is "a pastoral epistle," which is written to give direction to keep order in the churches.
Third, vs. 16 is Paul's teaching on the inspiration of the Scriptures.
Fourth, vs. 17 is the purpose for using the Scripture as one's guide.
Fifth, and most importantly of all, Paul has said nothing about tradition, something you have inserted into this passage with no authority whatsoever.
2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
--From verse 13 to the end of the chapter not one word is said about tradition. You are inserting tradition where there is none--very deceitful. The entire context revolves around Scripture--a strong case for sola scriptura. What did Eunice and Lois teach Timothy? The Word of God, not tradition! They drilled into him from a very early age the Word of God, the OT Scriptures, the Torah, the Law, etc. Those are things that he was assured of.
2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Sound words are the Word of God, not tradition.
Paul has referred to nothing but the Word of God.
Paul taught Timothy the Word of God whether orally, or otherwise. He preached the Word of God, never tradition. Study the Book of Acts. Paul never taught, preached, anything other than the Word of God.
The references here made to tradition are all bogus and deceitful. You should be ashamed for even posting such material. -
Thinkingstuff Active Member
Secondly, one must keep in mind that this is "a pastoral epistle," which is written to give direction to keep order in the churches.Click to expand...
Third, vs. 16 is Paul's teaching on the inspiration of the Scriptures.Click to expand...
Fourth, vs. 17 is the purpose for using the Scripture as one's guideClick to expand...
Fifth, and most importantly of all, Paul has said nothing about tradition, something you have inserted into this passage with no authority whatsoever.Click to expand...But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned it 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.Click to expand...
Now you have skipped up to verse 15 without letting the reader know.Click to expand...
The interpretation here is false.Click to expand...
[/I]2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;Click to expand...
So you need to do a bit better than that. -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑Then what do you do with verse 14 and 15 Look closely
It is clear that there is a two fold instructions in these passages one orally from whom he learned it AND from sacred writing which he makes the purpose is clear for. So tradition is clearly spelled out in this passage to coincide with Scriptures as the Catholic Church teaches.Click to expand...
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
--Scriptures are not tradition.
Even in other translations, when preceded by "sacred" it is not tradition. Traditions are not sacred. This is a definite reference to Scripture as it says here in no uncertain terms.
Actually I haven't. I just made that clear and it supports my view.Click to expand...
According to Almighty DHK but not to the text.Click to expand...
Yes this references the oral tradition of what he learned it is clear that this is differentiated from vs 15 because of the word AND then followed by Sacred Writings.
So you need to do a bit better than that.Click to expand... -
Thinkingstuff Active MemberDHK said: ↑I already quoted the verse for you in a very literal translation, the KJV:Click to expand...
[B]2 Timothy 3:15[/B] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
--Scriptures are not tradition.Click to expand...And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,Click to expand...you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom[a] you learned itClick to expand...
Even in other translations, when preceded by "sacred" it is not tradition. Traditions are not sacred. This is a definite reference to Scripture as it says here in no uncertain terms.Click to expand...
There is no two-fold instruction. He was taught, whether orally or otherwise from the Scriptures which the text states very clearly.Click to expand...
Even from Barns commentary we see that the perspective is he learned doctrines orallyBut continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of - To wit, the truths of religion. Timothy had been taught those truths when a child, and he had been confirmed in them by the instructions of Paul. Amidst the errors and seductions of false teachers, Paul now exhorts him to hold fast those doctrines, whoever might oppose them, or whatever might be the consequence; compare the notes at 2 Timothy 1:13.Knowing of whom thou hast learned them - To wit, of his mother 2 Timothy 1:5, and of Paul; 2 Timothy 1:13. The reference seems to be particularly to the fact that he had learned these truths first from the lips of a mother (see 2 Timothy 3:15); and the doctrine taught here is, "that the fact that we have received the views of truth from a parent's lips, is a strong motive for adhering to themClick to expand... -
2 Timothy 3:14 (KJV) But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Says nothing of tradition. Paul told young Timothy to continue in the things he had learned, not continue in tradition.
knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation. -
Thinkingstuff Active MemberSteadfast Fred said: ↑2 Timothy 3:14 (KJV) But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Says nothing of tradition. Paul told young Timothy to continue in the things he had learned, not continue in tradition.
knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation.Click to expand...Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.Click to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThinkingstuff said: ↑Simple question for you from the same passage. What do you call oral instruction? I call it tradition.Click to expand...
Thinkingstuff said: ↑And why would Paul distinguish oral teaching in addition to sacred Scripture? Think about it. If Paul had said "But continue thou in the things which though has learned in scripture". Period. it would be one thing but thats not what He said he said "continue thou in the things you have learned and knowing who it is that you learned it from and also those things that you learned from scriptures when you were a child."Click to expand...
However, you miss the obvious! The validity of oral is established by the written NOT VICE VERSA! That is precisely why we are called to TEST the teachings of prophets and if they speak not according to validated scriptures they are to be rejected (Isa. 8:20).
Even the Apostles oral teaching was to be subjected to Scriptures already confirmed - Acts 17 and the Bereans were congratualted for not simply accepting his teachings but testing them by the Scriptures and thus are said to be "more nobel" .
Why? Because oral teaching is SECONDARY to the authority of scriptures and that is precisely where Roman Catholic Tradition fails the test of Scriptures just as the Jewish Oral Traditions failed the test of scriptures. -
Thinkingstuff said: ↑Clearly a miss-statement of the facts. The scientific methods was developed by catholics. Many catholic scientist contradicted the standard model and andvanced science. Charlemagne who was very Catholic created the university system that expanded all over europe and now the world. And the Pope's declaration in 1992 was an apology for condemning Galileo. It didn't say now we hold the earth goes around the sun. Thats nonsense. What he actually said was because those who condemned Galileo didn't recognize the formal distinction between the bible and its interpretation that
So nice job in misreprestenting the situation.Click to expand... -
Thinkingstuff Active MemberThe Biblicist said: ↑So in essence, you are arguing that the scriptures are worthless in and of themselves and any attempt to read, understand or be taught them constitutes Oral Tradition?Click to expand...
Following that line of thinking then Timothy's Mother and Grandmother's teaching must be regarded by Rome as "Sacred Tradition" on the very same level as Apostolic Oral Traditions?Click to expand...
He did include their teaching ALONG WITH His own teachings to Timothy and called Timothy to honor both did he not?Click to expand...
However, you miss the obvious! The validity of oral is established by the written NOT VICE VERSA!Click to expand...
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