Is there really a conflict between Freedom and Sovereignty, if rightly defined?

So............................................................................?????? Spurgeon's statement is flawless then?

What's your point? Where did I go wrong?

 

No matter how obstinate you are, you cannot be drawn irresistible without the word of life if you do not listen and learn you will not be irresistible drawn. I am telling what scripture taught me. The Bible, the Bible alone is my religion

 

Spurgeon is telling you who is His rabbi is Jesus, rabbi has much more meaning than teacher.

 

OH....o.k. sure it does...

What, pray tell, is the difference?

 

You can keep repeating this, but this is not what the doctrine of Irresistible Grace teaches. I have shown you a definition from a Reformed website, because I did not want to be accused of misrepresenting this doctrine.

It doesn't matter how much you hate God, if God calls you with this "effectual call" you will be irresistibly drawn to Jesus. You will immediately stop hating God and love God. You will immediately stop being stubborn and obstinate and you will become completely willing to listen and learn from God, and you will absolutely come to Jesus for salvation. It has nothing to do with you, it is a supernatural work of God. There is NOTHING you can do to prevent it.

Again, if Jesus SINCERELY wanted the children of Jerusalem to come to him as he plainly said, why didn't he simply call them with irresistible grace, this "effectual call"?

Now, if you are going to claim once again that a person can resist irresistible grace, don't bother.

You do know what the word "irresistible" means don't you??

 

Matthew 23:8
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

I think if you read scripture that was given you will have more meaning in what Spurgeon said. No man is our rabbi, there is only one teacher, the Holy Spirit which speaks to us through His word. IMO i believe he was considering this scripture I can't make you agree with me. i can give you the definition, but it is meaning with your opinion of Spurgeon. I don't think he was pointing us to the definition but scripture.

 

I understand what you are saying about prevenient grace.

I'd just say that Spurgeon was not saying that God HELPED him believe.
Spurgeon was saying that God CAUSED him to believe.

 

I don't believe in regeneration before faith you can't be irresistible drawn by something you don't know or don't listen and learn from. It is foolishness to believe you can be irresistible drawn by nothing and God speaks to us by His word. That reformed definition isn't the Gospel


Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

 

No doubt he was......and as you were only encouraging a brother who may be starting to see things as you might....I respect your intention to encourage him on that level. I would do likewise. Of course, you mean to encourage someone who is attempting to re-examine these issues from a position you agree with.

You have a "right" (in a way) to encourage him towards it I think. Even though I disagree.

I would post something similar to what you have or along the same vein if someone raised Calvinist were re-examining those issues with an intent to understand Arminian perspective.

 

With 82 whole posts, its really nice of you to give him permission.

 

I can see what you are saying here, I think. I may not think much of Spurgeon's statement........but, meditating on the notion, I think I know what he meant to convey (if your interpretation is correct).

I think it's a distinction with little meaning...but, charity constrains us to assume that there is some merit to your reasonable explanation of Spurgeon's intent.

I'll buy it! :wavey:

 

I wasn't "giving him permission"...but, no matter....I have no doubt that he understands PRECISELY what I meant by that........even if you don't. I am assuming HE knows what that means. I would not assume you do. If you want an explanation............than by all means, ask.

 

Why don't you find someone to taze?

 

Oh, but I have Mr. Strawman, close cousin of Mr. Question Beggar, and my answer would be that God does not predetermine all things, that He is not Deterministically Sovereign, as that would make Him the author of evil. God is Providentially Sovereign in the world and actually does change the types of influences He puts upon His volition creatures. God is not limited in His abilities to freely interact with His creatures because His foreknowledge as the Determinist likes to claim, He is bigger than that.

P.S. that is what a rational person might gather about the meaning from a scripture stating that God chooses the foolish things in the world to shame the wise. That is, if that person can possibly believe there is another alternative to the meaning in scripture than his presupposed pet doctrine.

 

I agree with you 100% that faith precedes regeneration. And so did Spurgeon. This view of his was very inconsistent with Calvinism, almost all Calvinist/Reformed believers insist that a person must first be regenerated to have the ability to believe.

But Spurgeon definitely believed in Irresistible Grace.

Source- http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/spurgeon-on-irresistible-grace/

Do you see what Spurgeon believed here? Spurgeon believed Jesus did not knock at your door, he smashed your door to pieces and walked in. Spurgeon believed God would "make me to believe", that is, he would impose or compel you to believe. Spurgeon said there was no standing against it, it cannot be resisted.

So, if this is true, then why didn't Jesus simply compel the children of Jerusalem to believe? He certainly spoke as if he truly and sincerely wanted them to come to him, so why didn't he irresistibly cause them to come?

This is what Spurgeon believed, you can see in his own words.

 

HUH?

I don't know what you mean by this.

You may have personal beef with me, but....actually, I don't have anything against you. I hope you don't take too personally anything I've said, because I don't mean to insult you or hurt your feelings or anything of the sort. I can speak directly and unabashedly and somewhat unflinchingly, since it isn't in my nature to mince words...(even though I personally think I'm a master at it if I try :D). If you have taken my posts personally....than I am sorry. I think rather highly of you, and do not wish to have a personal vendetta with you as a poster.

I've never used a tazer.
Gas......all day.
Night-sticks........yes.
Batons.........affirmative.
(Well with the wife anyway) :thumbs:

Lethal Force?.......oh, yeah

Tazers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XWijwmvGU4

 

Trying to start a personal fight with the new guy again, so soon??? I'll bet Dr. Ach will be glad to know your focus has been diverted.

;)

 

No tazers.... We show this video every year in training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTd471QNwTc

 

Saying God is Sovereign and not in control of TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of decisions that humans make in this world is the epitome of oxymoron.

It is a self-defeating, self-contradictory, illogical and nonsensical statement.

 

None of this can happen until we listen and learn. He will not tear down the door that we put up our unbelief everything we put up can not be removed until we listen and learn to His I must. I understand where Spurgeon is coming from, but there is much more to scripture.

2 Corinthians 3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

This door, this veil of our own making cannot be torn, broken down without turning to God through Jesus Christ, just the way we are in unbelief, it is the work of God through Jesus Christ to tear down these doors. It will not be done without the word of God, the words of life.

The veil our door will not be turn down until we do turn to Jesus just the way we are. It all starts with the word of God without that nothing will be torn down, done away with.

Romans 6
Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.