Is there really a conflict between Freedom and Sovereignty, if rightly defined?

I am slowly coming to the realization that someone in bondage isn't free whatsoever. We, when we were sinners, were in it's grasp, chained up to it, engrossed by it, loved it, didn't seek for a way out, either. It was when God came to me and showed me how vile I was, and that I needed Him more than I needed my next breath, He then changed my "want to's". He turned me, as we have a saying around here, "slick as a mole". He crushed my stony heart and placed His seed there. Then He sent others to water it, but all the time, He was the one Who gave the increase.

Here's an analogy I'd like to use. I know that no analogy is "fool proof" in regards to convey something biblical, and someone will probably shoot it to "doll rags", but they'll hopefully get the gist of what I am trying to convey.


I was like the rebellious child a dad once had. This child grieved his dad because he was continually rebelling. He kept showing his son what he need to do, but to no avail. Then one day, he came to his son, and showed him where his rebellion was taking him, straight to prison. He got through to his son, and wrapped his arms around him, and clutched him to his bosom. The son no longer wanted to be rebellious, but to please his dad. His father had turned him from his rebellious ways.


I was rebellious, yet God was still my Father. God would come to me and show me how I needed Him, yet I went on my rebellious way. Finally, He got through to me that I was grieving Him, because He was/is my Father, yet, I wasn't acting like one of His children. He wrapped His arms around me, and brought me to Him, and gave me His never ending love. He drew me to Him, and I didn't stop Him from drawing me, nor did I want to rebel anymore. God first sanctified me, then justified me, and gave me the ability to repent. Then there was salvation that took place. All this was by, and through, Him.

 

Come on Willis, do you really believe ANYONE would want to be lying along the road half dead?

Jesus said, Come unto me ye all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Is Jesus talking about physical work here? No, Jesus is talking about trying to work your way to heaven. Most folks want to be good, most folks want to love God, and most want to go to heaven, but cannot find a way to do so. Paul spoke of this very thing in Romans 7;

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

People know they are sinners. Millions of people are unhappy with themselves. They carry a load of guilt. This is what Jesus is speaking of.

People do seek God, we have the examples of Cornelius and the Philipian jailer. Neither were saved, but both desired to be, both sought God.

Did they seek God of themselves? NO, no man can believe in him of whom they have not heard, but once a man hears the word of God he is drawn and enabled to seek God.

Jhn 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The Calvinists are correct when they say no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, but they always leave out the next verse which explains exactly how men are drawn. Men are drawn when they learn and are taught of the Father. And how is that done? Supernatural regeneration? NO, by listening to and hearing the word of God. If not for the scriptures we would not know anything about God. We would not know God created the world in six days. We would not know Moses parted the Red Sea, and we would not know Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead. This is how men are drawn, by being taught by the Father from the word of God.

But the man has to listen.

First, you cannot apply the example of Jonah to all men, many men when called obey and go out and preach. In all likelihood, the problem with Jonah was that he was a Jewish bigot who did not want to preach to filthy Gentiles. Even Peter had to be shown a vision of a blanket coming down from heaven with all sorts of unclean things he was commanded to eat before he understood God was telling him to preach to Gentiles. This is very likely the reason Jonah was so reluctant to go preach in Nineveh. But you cannot assume all men are like Jonah.

Lazarus was not dead in sin, he was a believer.

Jhn 11:5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

Lazarus was the brother of Martha and Mary, he was a believer, he was not dead in sin when he died physically.

Yes, but if you read the account, it implies the man was there to be healed.

Mar 3:1 And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand.
2 And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him.

Before Jesus said a word, these Pharisees EXPECTED Jesus to heal this man with the withered hand. So it is very likely this man came to the synagogue for this express purpose, to have his hand healed.

Well, everybody is different, not everybody hates God before they are saved. Cornelius did not hate God before he was saved.

I agree with this. Cornelius was not a Jew, so at some point in his life he heard of the true God. It was hearing the word of God that caused him to believe and he sought God.

I have always maintained that no man left to himself would ever seek God. First of all, how can you seek that which you do not know and have never heard of? You can't, and this is exactly what Paul says in Rom 10:14.

But truth is, almost all men have heard of God, and this is what enables them to believe and come to Jesus if they choose to do so.

 

It seems counter intuitive, but the more we understand the helplessness of our prior sinful condition the more we we understand the freedom of sainthood.

 

Convicted,
Serious question, is your view changing on doctrine of sovereignty and grace?

 

Brother, what I am posting, is the "gospel truth", and I have no reason to make this up. For a year, maybe even 1.5 years, periodically, I have asked God to show me if I have this thing right........I mean my theological belief system. I would study, with no change. I have been hearing people preach and making the statement, "I chose Jesus". And that may be true, but I still kinda cringed inside of me as I agreed with that statement. Something didn't seem to click with that statement. "I chose Jesus" is true, but it leaves too many things out. Why did "you choose Jesus"? What caused you "to choose Jesus". They left out the most important part of their sermon, "I chose Jesus because Jesus first chose me". Finally, this last monday, or maybe it was tuesday, I finally got down to the "brass tacks" and asked God to allow me to read His Word w/o any slant from either side of the theological debate. I wanted to read it with a "clean slate", so-to-speak. I had always read it through the FW perspective, even though I thought I wasn't, I was, and wanted to read it w/o any bias one way or the other. Things seemed to start clicking, and they seemed to be falling into place. The phrase "He will save His people from their sins", seemed to have a different appeal to it. Now, I am not saying I will ever end up there, but I am leaning that way. I can see TUIP, but the "L" is still iffy. But I want to study this out for a while before I make a commitment. I don't want to be too hasty and say I am there, and end up not. I owe it to Him to really delve deeper into His Word and learn about Him. I don't want to misrepresent Him, the One who did more for me than I ever have done for Him. I owe Him everything I have, because He gave me the best gift ever, His Son being revealed in me. We are commanded to "study to show ourselves approved unto God", to "hear the conclusion of the WHOLE matter, to "contend for the faith that was once delivered to the saints", iow, we are commanded to study. We need to have His yoke about us, so that we can learn of Him. As a Brother preached at my home church, he believed that yoke is His Word. He did say to take My yoke upon you and learn of Me, and we do learn of Him via His Word.

Again, if I ever do switch to DoG, let it be known that is will be done via MUCH prayer and MUCH studying. Whoever told you that change is easy is either a simpleton, has no clue what they're talking about, or just flat out lying.

 

So Willis, do you now believe all babies are born dead in sin? You MUST believe that to be a Calvinist.

 

Go to www.mljtrust.org and listen to his sermon on Ephesians 1:19.

 

This is where the "I am not there yet" comes into play Brother Winman. But I am seeing that as a distinct possibilty.......but I am not jumping into the DoG camp just after a few days of prayer and study. I need to study this extensively, and see if this is where God leads me. In the end, it's a "win-win". If God leads me there, then I will be there, I'll go whithersoever He leads me. If not, then I have a better understanding of their beliefs. But take it from me, this system isn't as vile as you think it is. I fought it for over six years, and loathed it. But now, I am seeing it differently. I now see how vile I was, and how good He is. I couldn't have said this even two weeks ago. But again, I am not there yet, and may never get there. But I owe it to Him to put my "theological beliefs" up to His Word and see if they will hold up. I owe Him everything I've got.

 

See Brother Winman, my whole life I was exposed to FW preaching. Not all of it was FWB preaching, because the ORBs around me preached FW minus a "fall from grace", plus they preached that faith is a gift of God. However, they're weren't any Reformed/reformed churches around me....or none that I am aware of. So I only heard one side of this theological debate. So, when I was saved, even though I didn't think so, I was studying through a FW bias. I honestly didn't think so, but I was. Now, hearing FW preaching isn't bad, but whenever you have a trial, there's a defense and a prosecution team. The jury hears both sides and then renders their verdict. I was only exposed to one side and didn't even give the DoG side a fair shake. I had condemned them w/o a fair "trial". I had been asking God to show me if I am wrong, because I do not want to misrepresent Him. I pray that none find offense to that analogy, but it's the best way I could describe it at this time.

 

Willis, non-Cals do not say that men come to or seek God of themselves. Have you ever heard me or any non-Cal say such a thing?

Now, I have been accused of believing that by Calvinists dozens of times. They love to call me a Pelagian, even though I have quoted Rom 10:14 dozens of times.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

No man is born with the knowledge of God and especially of Jesus Christ. Romans 1 teaches that all men can know of God to a degree.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

All men have some knowledge of God because God has "shewed it unto them".

Scripture also says these things are "clearly seen" and "understood" so that all men are without excuse. There goes Total Inability right there. Calvinists will quote 1 Cor 2:14 and say unregenerate men cannot understand spiritual things, but Romans 1 says they can, at least to a degree.

So, all men know of God whether they want to admit it or not, but no man knows this of himself, what he knows was shown unto him by God through the things that are made.

So, you do not have to be a Calvinist to believe you believed because God first revealed himself to you, that is absolutely scriptural and both sides believe this. The Cals often misrepresent the non-Cals and say we believe we can come to God of ourselves, but that is a total falsehood and misrepresentation of our view.

Be careful. Calvinism is logical and consistent within itself, and that is why it deceives folks. But it is not consistent with scripture.

 

If you study only one side of issue intently, you are naturally going to lean to the side you study exclusively. I was a Presbyterian and even an Assembly of God (charismatic) member before switching to IFB. I studied Calvin's Institutes, Augustine's "City of God", Luther's "Bondage of the Will" and most of my systematic theology books were Calvinist (Wayne Grudem was my textbook in Bible College. Though Wayne held some charismatic views, his soteriology is distinctly Calvinist). And ALL of my text books for Biblical counseling were based on a Calvnist author (Jay Adams). To this day, on my website, I still have IBCD linked for those seeking counselors in their area, although I do advise against their soteriological views. It was when I ran into John R. Rice's books on Catholicism that I started seeing too many similarities with Catholic religion and Calvinism, particularly the life of John Calvin and his and Luther's persecution of "heretics". Surely God wouldn't have taught a man such a systematic truth about salvation whom believed it was God's will to murder those whom disagreed with his views. John 16:2, 2 Timothy 3:14.

In 1992, I read Laurence Vance's , "The Other Side of Calvinism" and that did it for me on Calvinism. That is a book that no honest Calvinist could read with a straight face and honest heart and still hold on to Calvinism. That book made me look at my proof texts objectively, and sort of "start from scratch" where I just read the Bible alone from cover to cover for several months. That book and debating with Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, atheists and Mormons gave me a desire to memorize the New Testament. Although I didn't actually finish memorizing the NT until December of last year, I had committed all of the Pauline epistles to memory, had Genesis-Deuteronomy memorized from childhood, all of John and Acts, James, 1 and 2 Peter, Jude, and 1 John by 1995. It was in the process of memorizing all the parallel passages, and being able to compare Scripture with Scripture and comparing it to the Confessions I had learned that I was eventually comfortable and sure that my rejection of Calvinism was correct.

Calvinism is based more on philosophical speculations and invented terminologies of presuppositional interpretations with proof texts in support of the theories, and not really based on exegesis directly from the Bible. I thus couldn't fault you because you have not "chosen sides" and are not settled on the issues because there was a time when I wasn't either. I can not now accept Calvinism because it's not merely the stated beliefs that I believe are at odds with the Bible, but the logical implications and results of the system itself which I have explained in this thread, and those contradictions and conflicts that I have observed in the Creeds, Catechisms and Confessions. But most importantly:

Phillipians 3:

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

Thank you for that testimony. The L was also the most difficult for me.

 

There is a question in your mind whether or not God can change things he predetermined??

Really??

Perhaps you ought to think that through.

 

Every Calvinist who was once an Arminian can relate to what you are saying here.

You've read a lot of what I have written on here as a Calvinist.

If you'll send me your address I'll mail you a 15 page paper I wrote AGAINST Calvinism about 8 years ago.

You'll find it funny how much I sounded like some of the rabid anti-Calvinists on baptistboard.

I used to hate Calvinism. I called it heresy.

And slowly it began to occur to me that all Calvinism is doing is revealing a great big God.

The more I got my eyes off of man and onto God- the more Christ-centered my ministry became, the more Calvinism made sense to me.

When I finally crossed over, it was like getting saved all over again. The whole BIBLE made sense. My purpose for existence became clear.

This whole thing is not about US. It is about God.

Spurgeon shares his testimony of his conversion from Arminianism to Calvinism here:

Sound familiar?

It does to every Calvinist who was once an Arminian- I assure you.

 

What it proves is that Calvinism is offensive to every man's sense of justice. No man naturally believes a loving God would unconditionally save some people and pass by the rest. This would make God a respecter of persons. If all men are equally sinful, then a just God would either condemn all, or save all.

You are correct, no man is born a Calvinist, a person must be brainwashed to accept these doctrines. This is done by pulling scripture out of context, redefining many words, and ignoring many scriptures that easily refute Calvinism.

Total Inability is false. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they would not come to him, not because they could not.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Did Jesus say the inhabitants of Jerusalem were sinners? YES, they killed the prophets and those that were sent unto them. But did Jesus desire to pass these persons by? NO, Jesus desired to gather them together as a hen that gathers her chickens under her wings, but they WOULD not.

Calvinism teaches Total Inability, but Jesus said the very opposite.

Jhn 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Calvinism teaches that men have no spiritual understanding, but Jesus refutes this. Jesus said if men could not see, then they would have no sin, but because they are able and can see, their sin remains.

Now this is just. For God to punish a man for his sins is just because they CAN see, and therefore are responsible for the choices they make.

No man can naturally believe it just to condemn a man for something he has no control over. If all men are born sinners, if they are compelled to sin by their nature, and if they lack all ability to repent and believe, then no man can believe it just for God to punish man for what he cannot help and did not freely choose to do. This is why no man is naturally a Calvinist.

You must be brainwashed to become a Calvinist.

 

Spurgeon (although wonderful on many topics) regularly makes nonsense statements about these Theological topics Consider this:

ALL of this is easily and ENTIRELY consistent with pure Arminianism. Spurgeon just seemed to not realize it. If you compare ten sermons by Spurgeon on the topic side by side, you would find him contradict himself all the time. He never answers hard questions about Calvinism....he always just avoided them and pretended that the seeming contradictions didn't exist.

 

It is not consistent with Arminianism.

You are wrong about Spurgeon.

He was not perfect by any means but he was consistently Calvinistic and driven in part by that theology to shake the world for Christ.

 

Yes, because...

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)

and...

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. (I Corinthians 2:14)


Only a rabid anti-Calvinist would cite NATURAL MAN as proof for his doctrine.

That is actually hilarious.... except that it is unspeakably tragic.

 

I disagree, I believe he knew they existed and preached the appropriate message from the given passage.

Here's an example of how to this very day we say things which technically are untruths:

"The sun rises in the east" when the sun doesn't rise at all but we have the appearance of the sun "rising" because the earth spins on its axis.

I heard of a missionary who said this to an island native (The sun doesn't rise it only appears to do so).

Native - "Only a fool doesn't believe his own eyes".

Missionary - "well, it is because the earth is round and not flat as you imagine".

Native - "well sir, you are twice a fool then".

Some things are just not easily explained "under the sun".

How much more heavenly things?

HankD

 

What is important is the word of God. Spurgeon refused to disagree with any of it, even if it disagreed with His own belief. So many times we try to get in the way of the Holy Spirit when He is drawing people to Christ. God didn't mean all, God didn't mean world He meant this. Now if men don't see God high and lifted up they will not come, if they do not come to the knowledge of the truth they will not be saved. If they do not listen and learn they will not come to Christ, If they do not repent turn to Christ they will not live. This is not including infants and the mind of an infant who have not started to work to have to enter His rest they are already in. Our God is not named Moloch.

I am an old school that believes men are just like what Calvinist preach until God places life and death before them, and by their free agency can choose to repent turn to Christ and live or not and die.

We either follow the will of God to repent turn to Jesus and live and say Lord save me or I will perish or continue to follow our own will and die

We are not saved by our choice, but by the will of God according to His word, His promises. We are saved by grace through faith, because the wages of our sin is death a debt you did not have to pay. Jesus paid it. That is what our faith teaches us.