1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is there Salvation outside of Christ?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. StraightAndNarrow

    StraightAndNarrow Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2003
    Messages:
    2,508
    Likes Received:
    3
    This is exactly why I don't accept a five-point Calvinist view of the gospel. Christ commanded us to:

    Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

    You're saying that there was no real purpose behind the Lord's command? That He was making an empty statement? Sorry. That's not Biblical and in fact it trivializes Christ's lordship.

    As for me, I plan to continue to teach the world even though you claim this is meaningless.
     
  2. shannonL

    shannonL New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think in all my years of being a christian, going to Bible school pastoring etc... Frogman is the best example I have ever come across of a hyper-calvinist. To be quite honest with you froggy I had to rub my eyes and look twice at your picture. I know I saw your head puffing up with all that hot air, I mean knowledge.
    I pity fellows like yourself. I believe there are alot of folk of your persuasion who lay awake at night wondering if they are gonna make it in or not.
    Your blathering on and on on this post was ridiculous. You talk in circles friend.
    God didn't write the Bible in some secret, code language that only intelectual giants could decipher.
    The arrogance by which you state your position only reveals the weakness of the legs that it stands upon. The word condescending comes to mind when reading your posts.
    You would have felt right at home in William Cary's day. I suppose you would have been right comfortable with all those hot air, hyper-calvinists that stood in the way of Cary's call to India. Thank the Lord he didn't listen to them.

    "The Gospel has no power toward regeneration"

    Romans1 :16 For I'am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ: for it is the POWER of God UNTO SALVATION to EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH.

    I agree with J of Japan. Romans 10 definitly teaches that God uses MEN TO PREACH the Gospel so some may hear and be saved.

    For all you so called baptist out there who got one foot in the pool of liberalism let me ask you a question.
    If a man can be saved without hearing the Gospel, which means the Bible must be preached. Then what does that do to the authority of the Bible concerning our faith? I'll tell ya what it does. It undermines the Authority of Scripture that is exactly what it does.
    God will not contridict His own Word. If He tells us a person must HEAR His Word in Rom.10 in order to be saved, He will either send someone to that person , or that person, by the power of the Spirit of God through the intercession of the prayers of the saints will be directed, be it circumstances etc... will be led to someone or some place that preaches the Gospel from the Scriptures period, end of discusssion.

    BTW, DR. Bob was right on target when he said there needs to be more discerment among baptists when it comes to doctrine. The problem with that DR. B. is the fact that doctrine is out self help is in. It is sad because if folk only realized that the study of doctrine would eliminate alot of the problems they have with themselves.

    Oh well. This was one of the best OP I've read in a long while on this board. Thanks for stirring the waters with it.
     
  3. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    1
    Rom. 4 is referring to Abraham and David to show how they were justified by faith. This is just part of Paul's larger and longer treatise that focuses on Christ. I don't see that this passage is teaching Paul's readers that believing in God is sufficient.

     
  4. whatever

    whatever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    1
    </font>[/QUOTE]Where did I say that Paul taught that believing in God is sufficient for salvation? I didn't say that, as far as I know. I only said that when illustrating New Testament salvation through faith in Christ Paul used two examples, both of whom (to use your words) "could not believe in the incarnated Christ because he had not incarnated".

    Of course we who know Christ should preach Christ. To my knowledge no one has said otherwise.
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have never said for you to quit. But you should know that you are making disciples not 'getting' folks saved. A disciple is a student of a discipline. Doesn't necessarily mean they are Christ's.

    I do not trivialize anything. I have said exactly what the Bible says that God has given a people to Christ to redeem, that Christ has redeemed them.

    It is your position that trivializes the work of Christ.

    It is your position that states that Christ did not die for all sin; likewise, I am not a Calvinist, a Calvinist believes the elect must hear the gospel preacher.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  6. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Originally posted by shannonL
    Frogman:
    I am not even a Calvinist, therefore, I cannot be a hyper-Calvinist.

    Originally posted by shannonL:
    Frogman: 'froggy' (yet speaking about my arrogance. My head is obviously not puffed up, have you noticed I haven't had to claim a superiority through Bible College training?

    As far as pitying me and folks of my persuasion pleased don't worry yourself, there is a greater peace in my heart that God will accomplish His work through Christ than there could ever be in your. As far as wondering if I am gonna make it or not I have never said the Spirit does not give assurance of adoption (Romans 8:14-16) declares it is the Spirit that gives witness to us that we are children of God, why would I need you to tell me?

    Origninally posted by shannonL:
    Frogman says:
    Statements like this and still you will claim my arrogance? Almost unbelieveable, but you can't help it, it is your superior Bible College training talking and probably not your true attitude, so I will disregard it knowing you are beside yourself, admiring your degree.

    Everything I have stated is supported by and in Scripture. I have never said God wrote the scripture in Secret, the Bible even tells Jacob it was not written in secret, oh, wait, not everyone is of Jacob, and even not everyone who are of Israel are of Israel, but faith is counted for the seed. Oh dear, this blabbering hyper-calvinistic non-Bible college froggy does know scripture.

    When did I say I am/was an intellectual giant, you are the one claiming a Bible College training. All I have done is read the word of God since I was able to read, seeking, searching, desiring to understand, long before I knew anything of man's yokes of bondage upon God's dear children.

    Originally posted by ShannonL:
    Frogman says:
    More with my arrogance. You must not read what you write while writing it. My position is the only Biblical position there is, I will show you why from the words of Paul. as you make reference to Paul's statement in Rom. 1:16 you are desiring to leave off his statement in vs. 17; he says, 'therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith' I ask you and all, 'wherein'? in the Gospel is the righteousness of God revealed...now if something is revealed that means it is there all along but only revealed through the Gospel.

    What is the righteousness of God? Well we don't rightly know my Bible College trained friend, why not, because we cannot obtain to it except through Christ, it is at no time ours, not mine, nor yours, but His imputed to us; He (Christ for you slow Bible Colleged minds) is the righteousness of God revealed.

    Then Paul says to Timothy that it is the gospel that brings 'to light life and immortality' also in a passage in which he is encouraging Timothy to not be ashamed of the gospel and the suffering for sake of the gospel. I too am not ashamed to suffer for sake of the gospel of Christ which is the message that brings to light life and immortality, that were already present, already there as they are revealed in the gospel from faith to faith. (Again, froggy did more than a courtin dear brother (assuming upon you here your correct gender as you mentioned years of pastoring, certainly you are not a sister) See how easily a non-Bible Colleged mind can operate, no restrictions, no fears of writing the wrong things and getting poor marks; just simple faith and trust in God and His Word.

    Originally posted by shannonL:
    Frogman says:
    I would have been at home in his day. I care not that Carey went to India, I have a burden for Bhutan, but neither burden are or were nor can they be accomplished doubting that the purpose for going is that some there will validate the work of God in Christ, no instead I can go knowing that He has a people from every tongue, tribe and nation, and therefore there is a need to call them to rest in their redeemer in order that those who are burdened and heavy laden may find rest. (BTW which is the only Biblical invitation and it is given to those who are burdened and heavy laden.)

    Originally posted by shannonL:
    Romans 10 speaks of the revelation of the righteousness of God (Romans 1:17) through the gospel message. Romans 10 declares that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word 'rhema' exclamation of God, not man. Romans 10 declares this work to be a heart work first, then a confession upon their lips, the gospel reveals that circumcision of the heart (Romans 1:17 2 Tim. 1:9). Rightly dividing the word of truth does not require a Bible Colleged knowledge, but it must come out, like in all division problems, it must come out to be a true statement capable of being proven true by reversing the order. To divide scripture from itself and thereby have it to oppose itself is not a true division, but will render a wrong faith and practice.

    originally posted by shannonL:
    Froggy says: End of discussion? Growing tired of defending your Bible Colleged knowledge? I have already shown you that Romans 10 does not say that man must hear man, he must hear the 'rhema' of God, the voice of his/her shepherd. You and your Bible Colleged knowledge take the power of the Gospel away from God and hang the eternal hope of His children upon the power of men and man's obedience to the faithful preaching of the gospel and only God and our Saviour Jesus Christ is faithful in all his house. This position only does harm to your conception of the Scriptural authority because you cannot understand it because your understanding is through the view of your Bible Colleged degree. quit reading through that man made peice of paper and start reading the Bible. It is plain and has no need of a Colleged knowledge to understand it.

    originally posted by shannonL
    Froggy says: "self-help" is in? by whose standards? I have never proclaimed 'self-help'. It is your view of man preaching the gospel as the means of regeneration that declares man is now left to a course of 'self-help'. The study of the Bible Truth and the laying down of man's doctrine would be the first place to start. Man has to perpetuate the fear that God cannot save His people without 'man's' help, or else there would be no more use of Bible Colleges and seminaries scattering our landscape selling their political agendas to as many who will hear and pay for their agenda. Yes, thanks for stirring the waters in order that the mythology of centuries that an angel (read messenger) will come down and 'heal' us instead of the expressed image of the Eternal God, manifesting in Himself the righteousness of God, our place of propitiation and by HIMSELF purging us of our sins.

    Yes, thank you Dr. Bob for an opportunity for me to give reason of the hope that is in me.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  7. shannonL

    shannonL New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    686
    Likes Received:
    0
    Frogman I was a little petty I admit it . I was wrong in that regard. I just think your way off on some of your beliefs. BTW, I'm certainly no greek scholar. Nor was I a great student in Bible college. I do not think college training is essential to be in full time vocational ministry. The Holy Spirit can and does fully equip all those whom are called to be preachers,evangelists,etc...
    My interpretation of Romans 10 comes from my own discernment not from what somebody told me.
    God can still be 100% sovereign and still use men to carry the Gospel to the world. Your just wrong on that point period.
    Whether directly or indirectly a person was involved in your coming to Christ. We wouldn't even have our Bible if God did not use men to write His Words.
    The Bible says "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much". I firmly believe in intercessory prayer. People praying for the souls of men can lead those men to come to Christ through the guidance of the Holy Spirit of God.
    I must apologize for the personal jabs that was wrong it wasn't too Christ-like at all.
    I still firmly disagree with your convictions concerning salvation, atonement etc...
     
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2001
    Messages:
    5,492
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Brother shannonL,
    I respect your convictions and your disagreement, I mean the reasons you give for that disagreement with me.

    I see just as clearly as you state, that as God is certainly Sovereign to use the gospel as a means, His Sovereignty also includes His not having to rely on sinful men to faithfully carry that word of truth.

    I simply believe that to rely on men to preach the gospel and thereby get folks regenerated is disregarding the words of Christ and the context of scripture. (Christ said 'others I have that are not of this flock, them I must bring also).

    Your understanding will direct you to believe that means He will bring them by a gospel messenger. My understanding will and does direct me to believe that Work is wholly upon Christ alone.

    I also responded in a petty fashion. However I am not a Bible College graduate, though I am finishing a degree this fall in Soc.Studies/History with teacher's cert. so I am not 'uneducated' either.

    Despite our differences I love you in the Lord and I believe you have the same feeling. You just desire to stand firmly on your convictions. That is important, even if you are wrong &lt;grinning&gt;.

    May God Bless,
    Bro. Dallas
     
Loading...