I know it's rude, but please allow me to answer your question with a question: If a friend of yours was being treated poorly by an employer or co-worker, and asked you for help - would you refuse him/her?
If so, what's your biblical basis for your refusal?
Is There Such A Thing As A Just War?
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Marcia, Feb 6, 2009.
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Deal. Romans 15:1 is my justification: "We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves."
Especially the "not to please ourselves" part.
If necessary, I'll be happy to try to explain further. -
This is the context. It seems to be talking about caring for fellow Christians.
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Don, you didn't answer this:
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Actually, if you'll see the analogy I drew with my question to you about the co-worker/employer, you'll see that I did answer you.
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Taken all together, I see a principle where we are to care for others. The principle does not limit this care to only emotional, or spiritual, or physical aspects; if our brother is hungry, we are to feed him (physical). If he is suffering, we are to tend to him (emotional). If he is lost, we are to help him find his way (spiritual).
And if he is being beaten, or trampled, or cut, or whipped, we are to defend him. -
And one more thing while I'm thinking about it: scripturally, what are the responsibilities of the ruler (leader)? One of those responsiblities is the protection of those God has placed him over.
Is he to do that all by himself? Or do we take the biblical principle found in Romans 13 and recognize that the ruler is exercising a God-given duty, and therefore it is now our duty to help him fulfill that?
I hope that makes sense. -
Perhaps you should show how these verses stand up in relation to the ones I posted and in relation to the rest of scripture. I'd be happy to argue that Christ's message was love not hate. -
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just-want-peace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
IE: as you are walking along a country road after a bird hunt, you hear a muffled cry from some woods several yards away. You stop to investigate and find a rape in progress.
Now, based on your use of the message of Christ, do you point your shotgun at the rapist and demand that he cease and desist immediately, knowing that you just may have to end this life to achieve the aim of freeing the victim, or do you just call 911 on your cell hoping for the best?
To me, this is just a microcosm of the "just war" argument, and I would really like to know your take on this.
Reason I ask is that once a few years ago a poster on this board answered my query that "--you are carrying concealed, and you come upon a sniper that you can tell is ready to engage his next target." (This was about the time of the sniper attacks in and around DC several years ago, thus the specific example)
This poster told me that he wold NOT attempt to stop the sniper, but would just call the police. Now perhaps if he kept watch on this guy til the cops got there he may be successful in getting him off the streets, but by this time there would be one more fatality that VERY EASILY could have been prevented.
What would Jesus have done???? What would you have done??
Personally, I would have yelled for the guy to back off pronto, and if he did not or made any threatening moves he would be listed in the next days obit column. -
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JWP, we all know what the right thing to do in that situation, and it is what you stated - take the guy out. Anything less is moral cowardice. I wonder if pacifists are also against any and all policing? To be consistent, they should be, because police have to use force and violence at times. After all, god is love and he would never hurt anybody, even the rapist. What a joke.
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just-want-peace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I notice JC posted approx 4 hours after my question above, but I was totally ignored - wonder if that answers the question??:confused::confused: -
I remember that on a trip on time I stayed in a very dangerous looking fleabag motel. A friend had given me a hunting knife as a souvenir and I had it in the car. For whatever reason I decided to sleep with it under my pillow. The next morning I realized that it was highly unlikely that I would actually stick that knife into another human being. It was more likely that the intruder would grab it from me and kill me with it.
So, I don't know what my own behavior would have been. I do know what Jesus would have done. Nothing. -
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First off, I agree: Jesus stood for love, not hate and war.
Now, let's examine your concept of Jesus. According to your last few posts, Jesus would not have done anything to a sniper waiting to shoot a victim. However, scripture tells us that He went into the synagogue and actually cast people out (casting people out presumes some form of physicality), as well as overturning tables and the seats of those that sold doves -- see Matt 21:12, Mark 11:16, and Luke 19:45. Is this the same Jesus that would do nothing?
Next, to further explain my answers to previous questions, let's use your answer about the sniper. You agree that you wouldn't simply stand by and let him shoot someone else; that, in a nutshell, is exactly what I'm talking about.
Is there such a thing as a just war? If you can honestly say that you would not stand by and let a sniper shoot someone, then you have to admit that there is such a thing as a just war. It's that simple.
A "just war" isn't one that is waged to benefit any particular party; it is waged to defend and protect, because all other means have been exhausted or ignored.
I can find nothing in scripture that contradicts defending and protecting others. Instead, I find verses like the two I've presented before: We who are stronger should bear the infirmaties of the weak; and greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
If that still doesn't make sense to you, well, I apologize, but I just can't explain it any clearer than that. -
The theory of just war was not introduced in the Bible. I believe that it was discussed by Cicero and certainly by Thomas Aquinas and Augustine. I suppose you could call it a philosophical or theological argument. I basically accept it but still have some misgivings. When I was younger and facing the possibility of getting drafted to fight in Viet Nam I couldn't understand how a Christian could be anything other than a pacifist. Maybe I should be a Mennonite. -
As for governments, I think you have a better argument there.
Of course, the subject of the thread is not: Is it okay to go to war? But rather, Is there such a thing as a just war?
Since the wars that have been fought in my lifetime seem very fuzzy in their justifications (pun intended!), I find it difficult to discern if any of these wars are just or not. -
As for the current conflicts, my reconciliation is my personal experiences with the people of Iraq. In this area, I know that what we're doing is just.
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