First, don't get upset. This is a debate forum.
When a subject comes up that is not settled you can expect it to be debated--even repeatedly. Take TS (Thinkingstuff), for example. The countless times his doctrines come up never end. How many times is he challenged to defend purgatory, the perpetual virginity of Mary, etc. Constantly. He is not complaining about it like you are right now. Just defend your position even if you have before. Not everyone has a photographic memory. Remember that.
Repetition is good for the soul, especially when it is the truth.
Every time (like now) that you claim perfect holiness, or perfection and being holy as God is, then you are claiming sinlessness. What else is one to conclude? If I say that and I am wrong, then break into my post and correct it immediately and tell me I am wrong and why. Don't let it slip.
Most of the time I do, when they are stated logically, and Biblically--that is, they hold a Biblical position or are in harmony with the Scriptures. But what if your position is not in harmony with the Scriptures? What then? Then you must offer up another explanation. You must work toward the Bible.
But this is not true. If it is true you immediately call John unsaved. Was John unsaved when he wrote this book.
First, John uses the pronoun "we" throughout the book. That means he is including himself. "If we say we have no sin..." John includes himself. He is not unsaved.
Second, John is writing to believers. The verse between 8 and 10, verse 9 is obviously written to Christians. "If WE confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive US our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Again, written to Christians, we must come daily to the Lord and confess our sins to maintain a holy walk with Christ.
The verse after verse 10 says this:
My little children I write unto you that you sin not.
"My little children" is always addressed to the saved, and never the unsaved. The entire epistle is written to the saved. There is not one verse in the epistle that is addressed to the unsaved. John is written and is writing to Christians, not unbelievers.
There is nothing in this passage about being saved; it is about our walk with Christ, our fellowship with Christ. One of the key verses is in verse 7
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
--Walk in the light.
--Fellowship with one another.
--This chapter is about our Christian walk and our fellowship both with one and other and with Christ. It is not about salvation.
Is to be Cleansed or Free From All Sin, Sin?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 24, 2012.
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Now, as for you adding the part that I said I am “holy as God is,” you are a person who does not stay with the Truth, you add, you make up things that others did not say. That is what liars do, that is bearing false witness, and that is slander. When you are in a debate and add things that others did not say, and never said anywhere else on the board, then you cause great confusion, because new readers might actually believe you.
It is not normal for Christians to sin, as you have said.
John is saying that if we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
YOU are the one who claims that sinning is natural for Christians. You are the one who teaches that death will bring about sinlessness. Yet, John says if we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
John says, “if we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” If the truth is not in someone, were they ever saved then? Was the truth ever in them? Did they lose the truth that was in them? Either way I can accept this scripture, but either way you cannot accept this scripture, because you believe a person cannot lose their salvation. So, for your beliefs of OSAS, then it would be better for you to say that John meant WHEN A PERSON IS SAVED. Again, for me it is either before, or during, it does not matter, for John continues to say, “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But IF anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense---Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
You see, now you must reconsider your beliefs of once saved always saved. Either way for me, is no difference, for I teach one must always repent of sins.
If a person has never obeyed Jesus, were they ever saved? John says, “The man who say, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar,” Tell me, does that sound like a person was ever saved? If you are to convince me that the man was saved, then this is a great scripture to prove a person can lose their salvation. Again, either way, I believe what John says. This is not so with you, because you believe in OSAS. -
Moriah, let's just simply clear this all up. We have been saying that we believe you are suggesting sinlessness. An answer to a simple question will clear it up.
Moriah, do you sin? -
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You give me 1John 1:8,10 and tell me it is speaking about the unsaved and salvation. It is not.
So the problem is that the Scriptures you give are not not interpreted with what the rest of the Bible teaches. Your interpretation of them is wrong.
Example: (and only an example)
The J.W. interprets certain passages to interpret that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. Of course I don't agree with that. It is heresy. As I don't agree with their interpretation on the passages they use, I don't agree with the way you are interpreting the Bible either because it does not harmonize with the rest of Scripture. The same principle applies.
A half truth is a lie because it isn't the complete truth. But you don't tell the complete truth and leave many of us guessing. In fact you were very rude to Steaver when he asked you recently:
"Simply clear it up for us Moriah, Are you sinless?"
--A yes or no question that you would not answer, but only give a rude ungodly answer to Steaver? And you are the one speaking of new readers believing what is written here. You ought to be ashamed of what is being written here.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
--You imply that you are sinless.
John says "If WE say that WE have not sinned.
John says, If JOHN and MORIAH say that JOHN and MORIAH have not sinned, then John and Moriah make Christ a liar, and His word is not in John and Moriah.
--We know that is not true for the Apostle John. Is it true for you?
John says "IF we say we have not sinned..."
You infer that you have not sinned. -
For me, the person who makes such a claim, it is that person's salvation that I would question. For as the Scripture states--he makes Jesus Christ a liar. He doesn't understand salvation.
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
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its not know the commands of God, obey, and God gives you the Holy Spirit, but believe and receive Him! -
John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The context is about GROWING UP to MATURITY. He describes the IMMATURE "babe" in verse 13 and the "full age" or MATURE person in verse 14. The very same Greek term translated "full age" in verse 15 is immediately used again in the very next verse but translated "perfection."
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,[[τελειοτης] even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection;[τελειοτης] not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
The second use of it is something that the writer includes himself "let US" as something not yet attained but rather sees as something he presses toward "let us go on unto."
Paul uses the very same exact term in the very same two ways in Phillippians 3:12-15 but in reverse order as found in Hebrews. He denies he has attained sinless perfection but is pressing toward that mark (vv. 12-14) and yet claims to be spiritually mature (v. 15):
12 [I]Not as though I had already attained, either were already [/I]perfect: [τελειοω] but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 ¶ Let us therefore, as many as be perfect,[τελειος] be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
It is pretty apparent that Paul denies he has attained the first type of "perfect" in verses 12-14 whereas he has attained the second type of "perfect" in verse 15 proving they are not one and the same thing.
Moriah does not understand the distinction between the two, thus making them one and the same. -
Christians are perfect and holy.
It seems there is a false humbleness in some who call themselves Christian, and they show this false humbleness when they protest being called a saint or holy. However, what do the scriptures say?
Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.
Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.
John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified
Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
2 Corinthians 7:1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship. -
hp
But the reality of the matter is even though that is True, the Believer still is connected to the flesh, and in a real sense he is still that person who he is by his first birth of the flesh, and to deny that is sin and delusion 1 Jn 1:8
If we[Believers] say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
The Truth not in us means we are unsaved liars !
Because the Truth is in every believer ! -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Hebrews 10:1-17 deals with the REPRESENTAIVE person of JEsus Christ as typified under the law through types (Heb. 10:1-4). The types did not literally remove sin from anyone under the law because they were types or simply a "shadow" of Jesus Christ who was to come.
Christ came as the perfect sacrifice (Heb. 10:5-9) and High Preist (Heb. 10:9-14) offering up himself for the sanctification of His people. In his REPRESENTATIVE act (also described in Romans 5:12-19) that single act sanctified or set apart his people once for all under the New Covenant (Heb. 10:15-17).
Here is your problem! It was done by ONE man and it was done by ONE act and it was done ONCE FOR ALL and it was done FOR or IN BEHALF of His people. It is talking about what Christ FURNISHED FOR HIS PEOPLE not what His people do for Christ.
What His people do for him is not described until Hebrews 10:19.
We are completely sanctified, glorified, justified, saved, redeemed in the PERSON of Christ LEGALLY and POSITIONALLY before God in heaven but we are not completely sanctified, glorified, justified, saved, redeemed in our own person on earth. That is why we are urged to grow in sanctification in Hebrews 5:12-6:1; Heb. 10:19-25.
You cannot distinguish between what Christ accomplished FOR US in his own person and what is accomplished IN US by Christ.
You are misapplying these scriptures as they do not have anything to do with our own PERSON but with the PERSON of Christ and what He accomplished FOR US not about our own person and what we accomplish for Christ. However, it does no good to tell you, or explain it because you have no spiritual ears or eyes to see a big red barn if it were placed squarely right in your nose! -
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