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isn't the ULTIMATE Source of salvation In Classic Arminianism Ourselves?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 1, 2011.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I've only cited verse after verse.

    Only in your carnal sense of justice. You keep repeating the same old argument that Paul already rebutted. "How can God find fault, for who hath resisted His will?"


    All nature is from God, whether it be grapes or small pox. That doesn't make it spiritual. But you again confirm what I said. You make no distinction in the source and nature of the knowledge.

    The sources are nature and the Spirit.

    Is it because you cannot or rather not?

    In every argument you prove my point. You cannot receive our Doctrine because you have an image of God in your mind that is incompatible with it. It's a carnal image. You think God thinks like you, but He doesn't, and you cannot believe otherwise. You need look no further than your own situation to see that belief is a state of being—not a choice.

    So, back to James. To say that one can wring the message out of it that a man can believe in the one true God and not be saved because the demons "believe" and aren't saved is like saying animals can understand conversations because Balaam's ass spoke.

    Here's James' message: You believe in one God. Do you really believe in the one true God? If you did, you would tremble. You say you have faith. Do you really? If you did, works would follow. Is there a fire in the hearth? If so, the chimney would smoke.

    That's it.
     
  2. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Nail on head.

    The Biblical concept of God, who He truly is, not, what we like Him to be, or what we have always presupposed, nor, the One we have fashioned to our own liking and have made anemic, (only within a wrong concept) terrifies many. Many others stand in awe. Some are angered. Some cry He is unfair. But He is God in all His Glory. This is the God of Scripture. It is He and He alone that is to worshipped in Spirit, and in truth.
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    The only "thing" we can do is repent and believe the gospel. Jesus stated in Luke 13:3,5 "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Now, none of us can repent until God begins drawing us. But it is us who must repent and believe.
     
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    And it is only God, not us, that grants us repentance.

    He also leads us to it.

    It's all Him.

    When a sinner is told to repent, he cannot, unless God leads him there, grants it to him.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Once again CHS: BTW, this is always rejected by Non Calvinists

    Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
    When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!
     
  6. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    What is "CHS" bro?
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    CH Spurgeon....... Interesting because I identify with that type of salvation story....my testimony follows that.

    PS: Just reading Willis/Convicted's post & I believe he gets it. So I stand corrected.
     
    #87 Earth Wind and Fire, Jun 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2011
  8. Johathan01

    Johathan01 New Member

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    Having free will does not mean we are the ultimate source of our salvation. Neither does free will negate God's sovereignty.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Well said and to the point.
     
  10. Gershom

    Gershom Active Member

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    Nail on head.
     
  11. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

    Occam's Razor
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Aside from the Book of Acts and the gospels, can you show me where repentance is part of the gospel? The Gospels were pre-cross, and Acts is a historical book which is a book of transition. Most of our doctrine actually comes from the epistles. Where in the epistles does it tell us that repentance is part of the gospel?
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    [edit] The answer is absolutely yes.

    27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
    28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
    29 that no flesh should glory before God.
    30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
    31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1 Cor 1

    The Synergist says, “Of my own free will and choice am I in Christ Jesus”.

    The Monergist says, “Of Him am I in Christ Jesus”.

    It's just that cut and dried and simple.
     
    #93 kyredneck, Jun 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2011
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I find it odd that that your type of hermeneutic is a pick and choose method. You pick those very few verses in the Bible that fit your theology, and then quote them.
    Then when you represent another's position you don't even quote a verse but misrepresent them. For example, the synergist: There is no verse in the Bible that says:

    The Synergist says, “Of my own free will and choice am I in Christ Jesus”.
    --That is a misrepresentation and you know it.

    Truthfully, I don't know all the differences between the terms used above. But I do know that you ignore the great preponderance, the majority of what the Bible says:

    Whosover believes in him shall be saved.
    If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ you shall be saved.
    To him give all the prophets witness that if you shall believe in his name you shall have remission of sins.
    Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved.
    And literally hundreds of verses say the same thing.
    You ignore all of these verse for a very few verses that support your cause.

    What do these verses teach? They teach that a man has a free will, given to him by God, so that he is able to choose whether to receive Christ as Savior or reject him as Savior. It is his choice. God gave it to him. God does not force his salvation on anyone. Man is not a robot to God. Man does have a choice, contrary to your theology.

    He that hath the son hath life: he that hath not the son hath not life.
    --Man must choose the son; choose life.

    This day I have set before life and death. Choose this day....
    What did you choose?
     
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Ask and ye shall receive!
    Apostle paul wrote about this in Romans 2:4/2 Cor 7:9/2 Tim 2:25
    And hebrews 6:1/6!

    thank God for bible concordances!
     
  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Is not repenting turning away from our old life a new life, and by turning to Christ we do that?
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Did you repent at salvation? Yes or no? I did.

    Just think of what's at stake if we deny the ingredient of repentance as part of salvation. Preach the Gospel and tell them all they have to do is believe (which is not the entire ingredient, btw, belief is not enough, the devils also believe). What's at stake here is we think we are so learned and wise that we remove it? Then we have churches full of the unrepentant. This methodology doesn't touch upon mans lost condition. When sinners truly get saved, repentance is part of it.

    Yep. Acts is historical. Yet, the method of salvation is clear, and I wouldn't discount nor marginalize it's teaching because it's popular to do so. By the way, those in Acts got the idea. They repented. That's good sound doctrine. We can get doctrine from Acts.

    We also get other solid Biblical doctrine there, such as when Ananias and Saphira lied to the holy ghost, we learned they lied not to men, but to God. Good solid verification of the Spirit as deity. Good doctrine from that book. .

    I'll give you some passages and explain why it is not given explicitly as a 1 2 3 step to salvation which should be apparent.

    First off, did Jesus preach repentance? Luke 13? Yes, that's a gospel.

    You want epistles that demonstrate the repentant lifestyle?

    Romans 2:4? It's right there. It's part of the Gospel, because they can go back to that day they had gotten saved, and give God glory for their repentance. They learned repentance at salvation, and as a part of the Christian life.

    2 Timothy 2:19? That's more repentance. Unless you need the exact word. Instead of seeing where it is implied. But this is the Christian lifestyle

    2 Timothy 2:25...God again granting repentance.

    Why do you expect to find in the epistles, the plan of salvation, when they are generally written for Christian living? The absence of it in it's strict sense you are getting at proves nothing, nor does it erase the fact that it is part of the plan of how God saves persons, that He leads them to repent at the hearing of the Good News.

    You see repentance as a lifestyle in the Epsitles do you not? Why? Because is is written to those already saved, as instruction for living, not as Acts, which was written, showing to us how God saved persons, via repentance and belief. God's goodness led them to repentance, after they heard the Gospel.

    To these churches that Paul wrote to in his epistles, he mentions how they heard the Gospel, and we know they repented at that time. The intentions of the epistles is not the plan of salvation. Acts shows us repentance to be necessary. Even our Lord emphasized this, that unless we repent, what will happen? We will perish.

    Yes, Acts is a transitional book, making the transition from repentance and salvation, to the epistles on Christian living and doctrine.

    Also, I'd take any inquiring sinner right to Act 11:16-18, and not be blushing that it's a transitional book, and show that sinner that God grants him repentance unto eternal life.
     
    #97 preacher4truth, Jun 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 16, 2011
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    [gasp] [shock]....imagine that; a participant on a debate forum using passages that support their view. What IS this world coming to?

    Synergist:
    2.Christianity. An adherent of synergism.
    http://www.answers.com/topic/synergist

    Synergism:
    2. Christianity. The doctrine that individual salvation is achieved through a combination of human will and divine grace.
    http://www.answers.com/topic/synergism

    “In theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.”
    http://www.answers.com/topic/synergism-theology

    “Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God's grace in order to be regenerated.”
    http://www.answers.com/topic/monergism
     
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Does man have it within Himself to make the choice for God by own power/means, or does he still need God to send the grace to enable him means to do such?

    That it IS the biblical truths that unless God provides grace to usand enable us to even be able to choose that we are depraived and have no ability within ourselves to accept Christ and be saved?
     
  20. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    For some, the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism boils down to whether salvation is monergistic or synergistic. I believe the term “synergism” is not always accurately applied to the Arminian position. The word comes from the Greek synergos, which essentially means “working together”. While monergism (to work alone) may be an acceptable label for what Calvinists believe (God does all the work in salvation), synergism does not always rightly portray what Arminians have historically believed.

    The word itself, when taken in a grammatically strict sense, is not a very good description of what Arminians believe regarding salvation. Arminians do not believe that both God and man “work” together in salvation. We believe that we are saved “by faith from first to last” (Rom. 1:17). Since faith is antithetical to works (Rom. 3:20-28; 4:2-5; 9:32; 10:5, 6; Gal. 2:16; 3:2, 5; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:9), it is a misnomer to label Arminian soteriology as synergistic in the strictest sense of the word.

    Arminian theology, when rightly understood, teaches that salvation is monergistic. God alone does the saving. God alone regenerates the soul that is dead in sin. God alone forgives and justifies on the merits of Christ’s blood. God alone makes us holy and righteous. In all of these ways salvation is entirely monergistic. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is whether or not God’s saving work is conditional or unconditional. Arminians believe that God will not save until we meet the God ordained condition of faith. Faith may be understood as synergistic only in the sense that God graciously enables us to believe, but we are the ones who must decide whether or not we will believe.

    F. Leroy Forlines put it well when he said,

    “I believe that saving faith is a gift of God in the sense that the Holy Spirit gives divine enablement without which faith would be impossible (John 6:44). The difference between the Calvinistic concept of faith and my concept of faith cannot be that theirs is monergistic and mine is synergistic. In both cases it is synergistic. Active participation in faith by the believer means it must be synergistic. Human response cannot be ruled out of faith. Justification and regeneration are monergistic. Each is an act of God, not man. Faith is a human act by divine enablement and therefore cannot be monergistic.” [The Quest For Truth, pg 160, emphasis his]

    If faith were monergistic then it would not be the person believing, but God believing for the person. Faith is the genuine human response to God’s call, and the means by which we access His saving grace (Rom. 5:1, 2). It is still God’s grace that saves, but that grace must be received by faith, and the nature of faith is such that it can never be properly called a “work”.

    Does this mean that man is the determiner of salvation and not God? Absolutely not. God has determined that those who believe in His Son shall be saved, and that determination is absolute and unchangeable (Jn. 3:16-18, 36). We simply determine whether or not we will meet the God ordained condition of faith.
     
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