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Israel must go back to 1967 borders

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Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
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The pre-67 borders argument is ridiculous. There is no way Israel will ever give in to a country who refuses to recognize it's right to exist. Israel will have to be invaded, and defeated, for that to happen. And that never works out well for the invadors, at least not yet.
 

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
The pre-67 borders argument is ridiculous. There is no way Israel will ever give in to a country who refuses to recognize it's right to exist. Israel will have to be invaded, and defeated, for that to happen. And that never works out well for the invadors, at least not yet.

I agree - it is a ridiculous proposal. But I do contend it is a stretch at best to claim that God is going to curse America because President Obama made such a ludicrous demand.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
I agree - it is a ridiculous proposal. But I do contend it is a stretch at best to claim that God is going to curse America because President Obama made such a ludicrous demand.

I agree. It is more than a stretch. It could be adding to scripture.
 

Salty

20,000 Posts Club
Administrator
I agree - it is a ridiculous proposal. But I do contend it is a stretch at best to claim that God is going to curse America because President Obama made such a ludicrous demand.

Or He may just give Obama surprise next Novemember...
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
I suppose you are in agreement with such views as these?:

CURSE THOSE THAT CURSE ISRAEL:
“...It was because the Roman Cornelius of Caesarea was good to the Jews that Cornelius was the first Gentile to receive the gospel......I do not think it is possible to be a good Christian and not stand with Israel and the Chosen People.
http://bibleprobe.com/curses.htm

“God’s blessing upon a people and nation will depend on how they treat Israel. God promised this to Abraham, the Father of the Jews.....”
http://www.theodoresworld.net/archives/2009/07/antiobama_rally_in_jerusalem_g.html

Blessed Be Israel
“The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the Jewish people) are the people mentioned in Genesis 12:3 by which God brings blessings and/or cursings upon individuals, as well as nations, yes, even today.”
http://www.shalom-peace.com/blessed.html

Christians in support of the nation of Israel
“The Bible calls for us Christians to pray for and support the nation of Israel. Genesis 12:3 gives us this commandment from the Almighty God:...“
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3542366695

“Criticism of Israel and of the United States for supporting it leaves evangelicals unmoved. If anything, it only strengthens their conviction that the world hates Israel because "fallen man" naturally hates God and his "chosen people." In standing by Israel, evangelicals feel that they are standing by God -- something they are ready to do against the whole world. Thus John Hagee....." "God's policy toward the Jewish people," Hagee writes, "is found in Genesis 12:3," and he goes on to quote the passage about blessings and curses. "America is at the crossroads!" Hagee warns. "Will we believe and obey the Word of God concerning Israel, or will we continue to equivocate and sympathize with Israel's enemies?"
http://hnn.us/blogs/comments/29596.html

Those who curse Israel.. The USA?
“..... We also need to be praying that God will show Obama and Clinton along with other government leaders that they will finish off the USA if they continue down their path to force Israel to obey them.”
http://www.thesaintsinlight.com/post/2009/03/Those-who-curse-Israel--The-USA.aspx

America is now experiencing the consequences (curses) of Middle East policies which have been opposed to God's Word and to the preservation of His covenant land....this country's participation in Israel's destiny has been flawed when put in context of Holy Scripture.... if this nation continues to support the Mitchell Plan, affirming a land for peace approach, America can expect to experience the lifting of the Lord's protective hand in an even greater measure.
http://www.watch.org/showart.php3?idx=20174&rtn=/index.html&showsubj=1&mcat=1

“By seeking sanction against Iran, Christians are attempting to be “salt” in preserving Israel and the entire region from bloody conflict......Where is all the support for Israel, God's chosen Land, and for the Jewish people, His chosen people? Genisis 12 says...”
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...rs-call-for-sanctions-against-iran/index.html



The promise falls to all spiritual Jews whose mother is the Jerusalem that is above:

neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9:7,8

There is a general GROSS misapplication of Gen 12:3 to physical Israel instead of to spiritual Israel, to which it applies, i.e. “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ..... And if ye are Christ`s, then are ye Abraham`s seed, heirs according to promise” [Gal 3:16,29] The promises pertain to the Church of Christ, not to physical descendants of Abraham.

Just as Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness BEFORE circumcision (Gen 15:6), so was this promise (Gen 12:3) made to him BEFORE circumcision. Paul brings out the significance of that in Romans 4:

9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:
11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;
12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.
13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect:

Unconditional support for Israel is foolish. Unconditional support for any foreign country is dangerous for the U.S..

Not sure who said all this or what htis is so I suppose till I figure out what p[oint you are trying to make I am neutral to those quotes.

You seem to try and put words in my mouth or know what I mean, so let me try and figure out what you are trying to say I said and I might get back to you if I figure it out
 

Max Fenster

New Member
The pre-67 borders argument is ridiculous. There is no way Israel will ever give in to a country who refuses to recognize it's right to exist. Israel will have to be invaded, and defeated, for that to happen. And that never works out well for the invadors, at least not yet.

Rome?

Does anyone else find the title of this thread deceiving?
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
After listening to the presidents speech and then to Netanyahu's "rebuttal" before the combined house, the antithesis seems to be (who can tell?) that the negotiations of the shared borders with the Palestinian State will begin with the 1967 Israeli borders and they will go from there with Israel sitting in the primary seat of negotiation of which negotiations Netanyahu said "Israel will be generous" in relation to those shared borders but also indicated that in the final settlement Israel will not end up with the pre-1967 borders.

IMO, only a miracle worker could sell that to the Palestinians.

HankD
 

billwald

New Member
Is God preserving the "race" of Jews because he will eventually regenerate all of them or because he wants more Jews in Hell?
 

MamaCW

New Member
imgad


Did anyone see this? Its an advertisment on top of the post haha
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
You also have the Promise to Abraham which attaches to His descendants.

Genesis 12:1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

God will bless those nations that bless Israel and curse those which don't. Our Nation has blessed the Jewish people and the Nation Israel for many years and God has kept His blessings upon us. Why is our nation not coming out of the economic problems and seeing blessing matbe because our President doesn't bless Israel but curses her every chance He gets.

The last nation that cursed the Jews and killed millions of them was defeated in WW II overwhelming defeated and was split into two nations for several decades.

A distinction needs to be made between the modern political nation of Israel and the people of Israel. The promise is to the latter, not the former. So, just as its possible to love the people of the USA while having serious disagreements with some/many of the actions of the government of the USA, it is possible to "curse" the political government of Israel while still loving the people descending from Abraham.

It is important both practically and theologically to not conflate these two entities.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
The Jews fought and lost lives to gain the Land they have, land that God promised would be theirs forever.

But they would only possess this land under this promise in as far as they followed God and His Law. Hence, when they did not follow God they were defeated by enemies and eventually driven from the land.

The modern nation of Israel does follow God or the Law and thus cannot be considered to fall under the promise you mention. No more than the political nation under the Maccabeans. Any reasoning which flows from this promise does not apply to the modern nation of Israel either. And it certainly can't be seen as a fulfillment of the prophecies predicting their return to the land - a prophecy which coincident with their returning to obedience to God.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
What ould you consider the term curse to be maybe that is where we aren't clear.

Blessing to me means helping, supporting, defending coming to their aide and recognizing their bounderies and right to exist under those boundries as a soverign nation. Cursing would be just the opposite, and saying to return the the 1967 boundries is saying that they don't have aright to exist as a soveriegn nation within their boundries.
To lose that territory would be to lose possession of most of the temple area, the church of the nativity and several other historic sites thatare currently under Israelli control. This would include most of the wailing wall, if you were a Jew and could no longer go to that wall would you feel it a curse?

1. Not even Isreal considers these to be "their" borders. They make no political claims over the West Bank and several portions of their government (their high courts for one) readily admit this is a military occupation. So, the question of the 1967 borders is not one of national sovereignty.

2. Conversely, one might argue that calling for a return to the pre1967 borders is a means of blessings them. After all, even Israel seems to recognize that a return to these borders is a condition for peace. Hence, since peace is a blessing, pointing out the conditions for peace would be a blessing, not a curse.

3. As to not being able to go to the wailing wall, that assertion is doubtful at best. Since Obamas call was not for an unconditional return to these borders, it is only reasonable to assume that things like access to the wailing wall will be part of any peace deal worked out. As to the nativity and other Christian historical sites, why would the Jews really care about such things?
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
The pre-67 borders argument is ridiculous. There is no way Israel will ever give in to a country who refuses to recognize it's right to exist. Israel will have to be invaded, and defeated, for that to happen. And that never works out well for the invadors, at least not yet.

FWIW, Obama has also called for Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist. And FWIW, the PLO already does.
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
And Obama's stance is nothing new. Both the Clinton and Bush administrations have used this idea as a basis for the talks they supported. In fact, using the 1967 borders as a starting point is pretty well recognized as a necessary starting point for all observers of the peace process. Obama has just formalized what has long been accepted.
 
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