OK.
But where do we gather than spiritual death caused physical death? (Including to animals, who are not charged with sin). I guess I too used to take something like that for granted as well, along with "creation" in Rom. 8 meaning the whole universe (which this whole argument seems to hinge on). But the immediate context does seem to be more about the spiritual state of humans. (like the preceding verses, 19-21)
Issues with the slippery slope argument of literal 7-24 hour creationism
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Anastasia, Sep 25, 2011.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Why would the whole creation be groaning along with saints if it were not for the same basic problem - sin producing corruption/decay/disruption/death? -
If I said "in the beginning of the movie, they introduce the characters, and have a great action sequence, and show us the end of the movie," you would know that, because of the word "and" the phrase "show us the end of the movie" relates back to the time of "in the beginning of the movie."
Similarly, we know the time of reference for Genesis 1:27 is "in the beginning" as the "and" that starts every verse (because of the YOM character) relates every subsequent verse back to verse 1. Jesus' interpretation in Mark 10:6 is grammatically sound.
Because there is no break in the genealogies, if you insert billions of years between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, then the last 6,000 years is no where near "the beginning" of billions of years of earth's existence, but rather considerably toward the end.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Might I suggest you stop studying 3rd party sources and start getting it straight from the primary source - the Bible itself. You should spend less time reading uninspired men's teachings about God-inspired writings and more time reading and studying those inspired writings themselves. Let God Himself guide you in truth while you study His word.
Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
Consider that nakedness was sinful, else why were they ashamed? The death of the animal was a covering for that sin. God clearly sets that precedent. Human beings and animals both have life, while plants are never described as having life. The Hebrew term for soulish life is "nephesh chayah" or the "breath of life".
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life(chay); and man became a living(chay) soul(nephesh).
Humans and animals both were affected because both had "life". It was life that was affected by death. When death entered the world because of Adam's sin, it affected everything with life.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Why do you think Able's animal sacrifice was an acceptable sacrifice and Cain's plant offering was not? Because God set the precedent when he gave Adam and Eve the skins of animals to wear that the death of something with soulish life was a substitutional covering for the life that should be taken from the person for their sin. This law of substitution was essential for Jesus to be our substitution. If there was no connection between human and animal life, then animal sacrifice would have been worthless. -
Animals are not guilty of sin. God told man only, that he would die (that day which he didn't, physically, don't forget), because of his disobedience. He did not say this for animals.
When they were killed, they were types of the innocent Son of God who is killed, unnaturally, to pay for others' sin.
So maybe Adam would have been physically immortal if he hadn't sinned, since he was made in the image of the immortal God. But the original point I was bringing up was animals, with people arguing "animals couldn't have been living and dying before Adam's sin and death". I think that is really mixing up the two concepts of "death". -
1Cr 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
Here, we see that death is the enemy of God. It doesn't make sense that God would proclaim each day of creation good saying "and God saw that it was good," (and then after everything was finished he calls it "very good,") if the creation contained death - the enemy of God. By Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor 15:21 we know that there was no death in the world before Adam sinned. -
That still presupposes "death" is physical. But the context in Romans suggests spiritual. v. 14 says "death reigned from Adam to Moses". That's not physical death, which obviously goes unchecked way past Moses.
V.15 says "For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
The remainder of the chapter speaks abut "sin". That's the "death" it's referring to.
In Corinthians, it does contrast death with the resurrection from the dead, but again, the subject here is animals, who are not promised resurrection.
The same chapter also compares physical death and resurrection to a seed sprouting, so, one, there is some evidence of plant life being seen as "alive" and dying".
Two, this would be seen as part of the "very good" creation, unless that that changed somehow due to the Fall, as well. -
In one view, sin comes into the world and is passed and death is an individual judgement that happens prior to their life. In the other view, sin came into the world, and the whole world was judged with death, and that death is passed on, but the individual will not be judged as an individual until they die.
Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
Consider that death must be inherited for Jesus to die for us as a sinless man. If sin is inherited, then Jesus would be a sinner and deserve the death he experienced. But death is inherited and at the time of death we are judged as righteous or as sinners. So Jesus died physically, was judged as righteous, and was resurrected because of that righteousness.
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"sin is not imputed when there is no law" refers to the age of grace (Which Romans is a large expounding of). If no one was imputed with sin before Moses, then why would they suffer any penalty of "death" (whichever form it may take) in the first place?
You basically seem to be saying, they weren't sentenced to spiritual death, because they weren't charged with sin, but they were only sentenced to a physical death instead (because of Adam's sin). But death is used as one penalty, of Adam's sin; not two different deaths as two different penalties of two different commands transgressed.
The full Law wasn't codified until Moses, but there was still a universal ("Noahide") law that came after the Fall, which included murder being wrong, for instance. They were held accountable for this, beginning with Cain. Hence, Paul says death reigning "even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression".
Everyone was spiritually dead.
And this is apart of the "sin nature", which is what was passed; (not just "sin" by itself). Jesus did not receive the nature, because He was the Son of God.
Yet again, we're jumping back and forth between man and animals. Man is the one charged with sin, animals are not.
Also, "soulish life" is one thing, but no one here says that plants have souls. The point is, their process of physical death is largely the same as ours. -
It says "death passed" it doesn't say "sin passed." Death is inherited, sin is not inherited. Ezekiel 18:20 says "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him." So sin is not passed, death is passed, or inherited. This is how Jesus was able to die though he was sinless. If sin was passed, Jesus would have inherited sin. This is why Jesus says "John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." If you inherit sin and death comes as a judgement to that sin, then you have already been judged before you die. But the scripture says "Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" If our judgement comes after we die, then the death within us is not a result of inheriting sin and being judged, but rather it is the judgement comes after death. This is why Jesus was resurrected... he died having been innocent of sin.
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Those who commit sin are in bondage to sin.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Once again, Jesus describes the sin nature very succinctly;
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Incidentally, after Jesus return doesn't the scripture say that the "wolf shall dwell with the lamb" indicating that by human reconciliation with God, there will also be animal reconciliation to life?
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
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But I didn't say "sin passed to all men"; I specifically said "sin nature". That's something very different. It's connected more with the "bondage" you referenced. It is what causes us to be inclined to sin, not we just decide to sin for no prior reason, and then come under bondage.
I also don't see any justification for this "soulish life" connection. If there's no law governing animal behavior, why would they be included in what you are arguing is man's punishment? They only played a role of a sinless atonement; and just like Jesus, they could not represent atonement if they themselves were suffering the punishment. Jesus suffers physical punishment, but was spiritually innocent, so He could redeem man from spiritual death. (When physical death is eliminated, that will be part of the blessing, but it is not the primary redemption. Most Christians believe that when the saved die their soul/spirit goes straight to Heaven instead of Hell, so then why would physical death even necessarily figure in that?) -
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
We are in bondage to sin because we fear death. We inherit death because of the curse that came into the world through Adam's sin. However, we are not judged for our individual righteousness or unrighteousness until after we die.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
You see, we inherit death, and our judgement comes AFTER we die. If we inherited sin, and death came as a reaction to that sin, then when we die it would be the individual judgment... but the scripture says the judgement comes after we die, not before.
The whole world suffers from the curse of death that resulted from Adam's sin.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:21 says the creature will be delivered from the bondage of corruption (fear of death according to Heb 2:15) when we are delivered from death because they were subjected to death because of us.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Jesus experienced death though he did not sin. This means the death he experienced was not his individual judgement but was his inheritance from the curse that came from Adam's sin. But after his death, he was found righteous (his individual judgement) and therefore he was resurrected. -
I've never heard Heb.2:15 expounded like that. We sin because we fear death. I'm not saying it is wrong, as there does seem to be something to that. (I've been thinking a lot of this lately, and realize that much of the compulsion to immediate pleasure is because as they say in the world "you only go around once; get the most you can out of it while you can").
I still don't see where this connects to animal death. Again, they do not have the guilt of sin, or even the rational sense of getting as much as you can out of it; they go purely by instinct. (Which would also be part of the human fear of death). -
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
1Cr 15:39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh: but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, [and] another of birds.
God destroyed mostly animals in the flood (as the fossil record is a testament to) as well as men. To this day, we find many more animal fossils than human fossils. The flood is another testament to God killing animals for man's sin. But God also saved the animals along with Noah on the ark. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You have quoted the answer you have asked for! We are not in bondage to sin because of "fear" but because of our "own lust" as it is when "lust has conceived, it bringeth forth sin" NOT WHEN "FEAR hath conceived it bringing forth sin"
You fail to understand that the root of sin has to do with MOTIVE behind all you say, think and do. That motive is not fear but SELFISHNESS. That is precisely why sin is in essence coming "short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) because we are commanded that the proper motive for all that we think or do be "FOR THE GLORY OF GOD."
The root of sin is the heart that "LOVES DARKNESS" and "HATES LIGHT" that is the root of sin and that is the heart which you are BORN with.
In regard to "fear" there is no fear "in perfect love" because love casts out all fear but the lost man's heart from birth is without LOVE as love is something only obtained by new birth. The opposite of LOVE is SELFISHNESS and that is precisely what SIN is by motive - selfishness behind all you say and do.
This SELFISH motive is clearly seen in infants as soon as they are born. If they had the body of an adult they would kill you in a heart beat to get what they want.
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Psa. 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Ps 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
LUST is what conceives sin and LUST is SELF-PLEASING! Animals "fear" death but do not sin!!!!! -
1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
The word for "love" here is agape love, which is the God kind of love.
1Cr 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
Love is the opposite of selfishness, but in 1 John 4:18 we see that love is the opposite of fear. Therefore I think it safe to say that fear and selfishness are synonymous.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Consider that Adam and Eve, prior to the fall and prior to sin lusted after the forbidden fruit and wanted to be "like God, knowing good and evil." Consider the following verses:
1Cr 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Cr 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
2Cr 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So there seems to be a godly form of desire - or at the very least lust and desire falls short of being called sin. Indeed don't we all come to Christ out of a desire for eternal life and forgiveness from sin? Isn't this ultimately self-serving and selfish?
Here is how I see it - it is a progression (progressive if you will): lust (selfish desire) leads to sin. Sin leads to death. Once we have sinned and deserve death, we fear death and are thereby enslaved to our sin. We are in bondage to the master of death because of our sin, forced by self-preservation to act opposite or contrary to love - forced to be self seeking in order to sustain life rather than the original design which is to have life and have it abundantly. We hold tightly to the darkness because the light would expose our evil deeds and demonstrate our guilt and necessitate our death. We fear death, so we remain enslaved to sin, thereby being subjected to a sin nature to prolong our life. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {thou shalt surely…: Heb. dying thou shalt die}
The scriptures make it very clear that sin separates a person from God not fear
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
Eph. 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Spiritual death is a result of sin and it was their FEAR of God that manifested their SEPARATION from God had ALREADY OCCURRED due to SIN!
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In Matthew 5:9, Mark 2:9, and Luke 5:23 Jesus says "which is easier to say, your sins are forgiven or rise up and walk?"
Jesus statements show clearly that sin effected physical death, sickness, and disease and that forgiveness of sin meant freedom from these ailments. That the same faith (faith in Jesus Christ) that saves men's spirits also heals their bodies from sickness and death. It demonstrates that the separation is not just spiritual, but also physical.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
16).
However, you are right about one thing! Fear is NEVER referred to in Genesis or the fall of Satan or in the temptation list given by John to describe the fall.
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