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Featured Jepthath's vow

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Brutus, Aug 16, 2014.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    What is interesting is that so many hold that it can only be interpreted that the daughter died.

    “It seems absolutely clear that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering. Yet there is a Jewish exegetical tradition that spared the daughter’s life. It depends on two things. First, a grammatical, semantic point: the vav in ve-ha alithu, usually translated “and I will offer it,” can mean “or I will offer it.” Precedent is in Exodus 21:15…”

    The above authors believe that the text indicates the daughter was killed. But even they are willing to acknowledge that in some Jewish tradition she was not, but instead remained unmarried in accordance with the vow.
    In other words, both Deacon and I are standing on a ground that cannot be completely defended due to a lack of concrete biblical evidence (unless, of course, we wish to revel in ignorance and lean on our own opinions). The subject of the passage was neither Jephthah’s daughter nor her death. Given the options, we try to make sense of the passage and see which meaning best suits the biblical content and worldview. We come up with different opinions...but interestingly enough, the context of the passage does not change.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    If Jephthah had sacrificed his daughter why would GOD have not given him the same punishment HE gave Nadab and Abihu?
     
  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Are you really asking me to explain why God would or wouldn't react a certain way?

    Rob
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I mistakenly assumed a Deacon could handle any task!
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I learned long ago that our God is wild and won't fit in a box.

    Rob
     
    #25 Deacon, Aug 20, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2014
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Scripture tells us:

    Malachi 3:6. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

    Sounds like GOD is consistent not "wild". That is the reason I asked the question:
     
  7. corndogggy

    corndogggy Active Member
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    Exodus
    22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.
    22:30 Likewise shalt thou do with thine oxen, and with thy sheep: seven days it shall be with his dam; on the eighth day thou shalt give it me.



    2 Samuel 21
    21:1 Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.
    21:2 And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)
    21:3 Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?
    21:4 And the Gibeonites said unto him, We will have no silver nor gold of Saul, nor of his house; neither for us shalt thou kill any man in Israel. And he said, What ye shall say, that will I do for you.
    21:5 And they answered the king, The man that consumed us, and that devised against us that we should be destroyed from remaining in any of the coasts of Israel,
    21:6 Let seven men of his sons be delivered unto us, and we will hang them up unto the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the LORD did choose. And the king said, I will give them.
    21:7 But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son of Saul, because of the LORD's oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul.
    21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:
    21:9 And he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the LORD: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.
    21:10 And Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth, and spread it for her upon the rock, from the beginning of harvest until water dropped upon them out of heaven, and suffered neither the birds of the air to rest on them by day, nor the beasts of the field by night.
    21:11 And it was told David what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done.
    21:12 And David went and took the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from the men of Jabeshgilead, which had stolen them from the street of Bethshan, where the Philistines had hanged them, when the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa:
    21:13 And he brought up from thence the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son; and they gathered the bones of them that were hanged.
    21:14 And the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son buried they in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the sepulchre of Kish his father: and they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God was intreated for the land.
     
    #27 corndogggy, Aug 21, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2014
  8. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    JonC's points are well-taken:

    37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows. 38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. 39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

    Why weep and wail if you have to die suddenly as a virgin? Once you're sliced from neck to navel, will dying a virgin really mean that much to you or anyone else? No, you weep and wail because you have to live as a virgin for the rest of your life and never know the bliss of marriage and family (basically the only reason for a woman's existence in the cultures of that day). Besides, the final expression "and she knew no man" only makes sense as the explanation of the preceding clause, that "which he had vowed." Why God would have mightily blessed someone who beforehand vowed to slice up the first person who comes out of his house to meet him is also contrary to God's nature. Of course, the vexing question is why the text says "and I will offer him up as a burnt offering." But also the text may be construed, "And I will cause him to go up the ascent." Who knows, maybe this is simply a foreshadowing of the daughters going up into the mountains, or of the solitude that he's devoting the person to who first comes out to meet him.
     
  9. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland Active Member

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    Perhaps a review of redemption law is in order.

    For your other 2 Sam 21 example, I do not deny the moral difficulty of the passage, but neither do I overlook the 70 times 7 (so to speak) of the Gibeonite innocents that were slaughtered in direct violation of the sacred vow not to do so, and further the passage stands as a stark reminder that murderous sins do not go unpunished and often affect later generations.

    Ex. 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children’s children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    God does not accept human sacrifice!
     
  11. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Document dump

    “And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—”
    (Hebrews 11:32, ESV)
    *********
    The recurring theme in Judges is that the lack of a king allowed everyone to do what was right in his own eyes (17:6; 18:1; 19:1; 21:25). Therefore, the days of Jephthah were days of rampant apostasy and spiritual ignorance.

    TORCH TRINITY JOURNAL 6 (2003) Pp.118-131. JEPHTHAH’S SACRIFICE: NATURE AND SIGNIFICANCE FOR TODAY. James P. Breckenridge
    ***********
    70—The number of Gideon's children (8:30)
    30/30/30—The sons/donkeys/cities under Jair (10:4)​
    1
    The single daughter of Jephthah (11:34)​
    30/30/30—The sons/daughters/daughters-in-law of Ibzan (12:9)​
    70—The donkeys for Abdon's 40 sons and 30 grandsons (12:14)

    The story of Jephthah is at the focal point of this chiasm, and the story of Jephthah's daughter is central in the five-part account. She is his only child; he had no sons (11:34). The story of Jephthah therefore is of strategic importance in the theme of the failure of the family. What this father did with his child is of utmost importance.

    Certainly Jephthah knew that human sacrifice was forbidden in Israel (Lev. 18:21; Deut. 12:31), and "yet Israel's neighbors—ironically, especially the Ammonites—sacrificed their children and this custom might have influenced Jephthah." Mullen suggests that "on one level, Jephthah the outcast appears a good Yahwist. But the nature of the vow itself serves as a commentary on Jephthah's relationship to Yahweh. Unwilling to trust that Yahweh is with him, Jephthah attempts to insure his victory via the promise of a burnt offering." Block states that his vow was "outrightly pagan" and that it "arose from a syncretistic religious environment."

    BiBLiOTHECA SACRA 162 (July-September 2005): 279-98, THE FAILURE OF THE FAMILY IN JUDGES, PART 1: JEPHTHAH, Michael J. Smith

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    Keil and Delitzsch Commentary
    With regard to Jephthah’s vow, the view expressed so distinctly by Josephus and the Chaldee was the one which generally prevailed in the earlier times among both Rabbins and fathers of the church, viz., that Jephthah put his daughter to death and burned her upon the altar as a bleeding sacrifice to Jehovah. It was not till the middle ages that Mos. and Dav. Kimchi and certain other Rabbins endeavoured to establish the view, that Jephthah merely dedicated his daughter to the service of the sanctuary of Jehovah in a lifelong virginity. (Vol. 2, p. 280).

    … All these circumstances, when rightly considered, almost compel us to adopt the spiritual interpretation of the words, “offer as a burnt-offering.”
    Commentary on the Old Testament (Vol. 2, p. 284). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.

    **********
    Concerning an alternative translation of "or" instread of "and" in verse 11:31

    “then whatever comes out from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from the Ammonites shall be the LORD’s, "OR" I will offer it up for a burnt offering.”” (Judges 11:31, ESV)
    It is offered as a possible translation but it is rare and when used generally and easily be replaced by the word "and" – which isn't the case in this instance.

    This is articulated well in the NET Bible translation notes:
    Josephus
    (266) Accordingly, when that time was over, he sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering, offering such an oblation as was neither conformable to the law nor acceptable to God, not weighing with himself what opinion the hearers would have of such a practice.
    Josephus, F., & Whiston, W. (1987). The Works of Josephus: complete and unabridged. Peabody: Hendrickson.

    ***********

    I thought this was most interesting since if Jephthah offered his daughter for service to the LORD rather than kill her, he would be sending her to the very people his fought in Judges chapter 12.

    Did Jephthah kill his daughter?
    Those who answer this question in the negative will generally say that she, rather than actually being killed, was redeemed from death but consigned to perpetual virginity. It will usually then be presumed that she served out this vow as a servant at the tabernacle, which was then in Shiloh, in the tribal territory of Ephraim.

    Rob
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that it is granted that those who interpret the passage as Deacon does still reject that God approved (or accepted) the sacrifice of his daughter.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Henry H. Halley in his Bible Handbook makes what I believe to be a most perceptive observation {page 31}:
    I believe the above remark by Halley is an appropriate understanding of one purpose of God calling out Abraham and subsequently the people of Israel. I have stated on other occasions that I believe God set aside Israel, and from Israel the tribe of Judah, as the vessel through which the Incarnation would occur.

    God began this process of His disciplining and discipling of the Israelites after bringing them out of Egypt. First, as I recall, there was His judgment on those who danced around the golden calf. But as the Stephen says of the Jews: Act 7:51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    The Israelites were disciplined repeatedly during the wilderness and eventually the adults, with two exceptions, were sentenced to die in the wilderness, never to see the land of Promise, except Moses. In an earlier post I presented the following:

    Now if someone can explain why God would not have done to Jephthah as he did to the above two then perhaps allowing Jephthah to burn his daughter would have made sense!
     
  14. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    I seems as if you’ve boxed God into a position where you believe he had to act a certain way or not be God.

    How's that working for you?

    Rob
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Or God has revealed Himself to act a certain way. Some think that God will discipline His people...maybe because He said so...but they take this as a definite (or, for example, that God will save those who believe...imagine placing such restraints on God). My point is that OldRegular is not "boxing in God." I also question the description you offered of God as "wild." (on my part, this may be because of John Eldredge's views).
     
    #35 JonC, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2014
  16. Brutus

    Brutus Member
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    I think that Matthew Henry gives the best explanation. I won't post it because of the length. You can read it for yourself. One thing that I noticed is how the majority of posts state that God wouldn't accept such a sacrifice. My question is: You say that God would have punished him for carrying out that sacrifice, how exactly do you know that He didn't?
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I already told you once but repetition is an accepted method of teaching!

     
  18. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    We think we can define God by listing his attributes.
    Sure, unchanging (immutability) is one of God's characteristics but that attribute is often spoken of in a way that simply means that God doesn't change from the way we imagine him.

    It's been argued by many that holiness is God's greatest attribute.
    Holiness can be defined as "set apart" but "otherness" and even "purity" are be parts of it.

    In the book of Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu each claimed to know how God works.
    In the end God humbled Job and corrected his theology and Job replied;
    And then God voiced his anger at Job's friends who thought they had figured God out and said that Job alone spoke “of me what is right”.

    Paul writes" “… now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” (1 Corinthians 13:12, ESV)

    I can't figure God out. I can see parts of him that he reveals to me.
    But God's ways are foreign to us… he is holy, ....wild, ....different.

    He want us to be like him and guides us but we have not yet and never will understand his fullness.

    He will remain holy!

    It may disturb some to know they can't always figure out how he will act.

    It will anger some that what they expect him to do, he doesn't always do.

    As much as we try to systematize theology there will always be aspects of him that make him different, unpredictable, ...holy…holy…holy.

    Rob
     
  19. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Not true! .......
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    True!! unless you can prove otherwise by Scripture. And you can't count Jesus Christ because He offered Himself as one without sin!
     
    #40 OldRegular, Aug 22, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2014
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