Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Jesus said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me.” ~ John 12:32
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Scott Downey, Dec 28, 2019.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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there was only one difference between C,A. the selection of the elect done in eternity - was it based upon foreknowledge or decree? the rest, at one time and for the most part, was agreed upon.
But ALL KINDS of faith expressions built upon weird doctrinal foundations NOW-A-DAYS get mislabeled as either Calvinism or Arminianism. True there are modified versions of both C/A but in reality its a zoo out there in the Ethernet.
there are other reasons LOTS of folks won't answer.
e.g. for fear of receiving flak which ends in a crash and burn, its not always because of one's opponents prowess and oratory skills. -
If you define ALL with scripture. All = all the Father gave to Jesus. It's a contradiction if you define otherwise.
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Arminius says because He looked and saw certain ones would believe and come to Christ if they had the power to do so, but they being helpless and hopeless He therefore provided that power. -
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
What I derive from this verse:
1. This is in the context of salvation - for Paul is explaining why God's word seems to have failed with the Israelites except for a remnant (Rom 9:27, Rom 10:1)
2. This is pertaining to individuals - for Paul is using examples of Jacob and Esau to show how God's election works.
3. This is impartial and Sovereign - for Paul insists that the differential does not lie in either Jacob or Esau but in God alone as reiterated in Rom 9:16.
How could the purpose of God not stood by election if it had been after the children had been born and not before - why was it necessary that God elect without considering anything they would do - why must the parenthesis of v.11 be added in Holy Scriptures? It's because it would lead to the charge of partiality in the dispensation of Grace. Now, there are 2 plausible positions for the basis of election - either God bases it on what man is/does or He bases it on just His own sovereign will. If it is based on what man is/does, then God must factor in each man's life through foreknowledge - but v.11 is specifically negating that, therein proving it must be by His own sovereign will. What is the alternate interpretation possible here?
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Lets start with John 6:37,
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
And here is an analysis that does make sense:
In this verse "all" only refers to those individuals God "gives" to Christ.
Giving refers to transferring chosen individuals into Christ spiritually.
Thus "come to Me" does not refer to trusting in Christ, but to their spiritual location being changed from not it Christ, to being in Christ.
Why? Because after being "given" and having "come to Christ" they are "in Christ" with the promise Christ will not cast them back out.
Next, John 6:39 requires that "giving" in this context requires it refer to being placed "in Christ" thus will be saved forever and raised on the last day.
Next John 6:45 again uses "all" to refer only to those God "gives" (transfers into Christ.) Everyone who has heard [the gospel of Christ] and has "learned" is transferred into Christ. Learned refers to a person putting their full trust in Christ, as credited by God.
John 10:27-30 says those transferred into Christ become "My Sheep." This passage does not say "the sheep" or "of My sheep."
John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (all the peoples God gives to Christ) Here we have the bogus Calvinist doctrine added to the text in parenthesis. "All" here refers to all those who behold (become aware" of Christ "high and lifted up" (dying for them on the cross) and therefore will be "drawn" (attracted by God's lovingkindness) to Christ. Therefore some of those drawn are given, and all given have been drawn. The bogus view is all that are drawn are given. Not how it reads.
Next we have three verses from John 17, which seem non germane, with the possible bogus intent to conflate things given to Christ such as authority with God transferring individuals into Christ. Nonsense.
Next, the long passage from Hebrews seems to be non-germane. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
You do offer answers .
If you want to have fun sit with a legal pad or copy and paste some of the answers on each thread.
When you can list 20 responses with no scripture, just mocking, and name calling, that is what I am speaking of -
truly if i have ruffled feathers i am sorry, though if it were entertainment for you, i am glad -
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We can see the immediate audience of John 6. Most end up Rejecting a clear offer made to them.
32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
We can see their objections.
52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
Calvinist Jesus Simply would have agreed. You guys are correct, I did not come to give you life, I did not come to die for you, I do not offer my flesh to you.
Also Jesus Christ does all the drawing. -
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Scott Downey Well-Known Member
The ones who hear are 'of God', John 8, Jesus says those who do not hear are not of the Father. I take that to mean they are not those who are born again. Someone who is born again, is an infant or babe and it is to them the Father reveals the things of God as they are now of God and can listen and hear and respond positively to Christ. The Father reveals the things of God to babes.
Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
You can not believe in Christ if all you are is the old man of the flesh, and have enmity with God. God must change you and He does that by the new birth, otherwise the enmity remains and you will never hear God or believe what Christ says.
Enmity is defined as
en·mi·ty
noun
the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
"decades of enmity between the two countries"
When your born again, (begotten again), you are of God and you live according to the Spirit, you have passed from death into life, you have been made alive spiritually to God and possess eternal life. Then afterwards when you believe, (and all who are born of God will believe in Christ), you are sealed by the Spirit as a guarantee for the future redemption of His purchased possession which is you.
Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. -
@Scott Downey,
Being of God precedes being born of God. Calvinist position, as I understand it, regeneration precedes faith. It is my understanding, sanctification of the Spirit precedes faith which pecedes regeneration. Those who resist being sanctified of God's Spirit, resist hearing truth, indicating not being of God for that reason. -
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Isn't there parallelism here to equate "coming to Christ" with "believing in Christ" depicted by the equal comparison over hunger and thirst? The way Jesus words this just seems weird as per your interpretation of "come to Me" not referring to "believing in Christ".
Even by your definitions, it gets more confusing.
v.37 becomes - "All that the Father has transferred in Me shall be in Me". Isn't it a redundancy to state this? Obviously, someone transferred in Christ is in Him by that very act of transferring - why draw out a future distinct "shall be" inference from this just to mean one and the same? The act of giving sequentially precedes the act of coming - how is this explained by your interpretation?
From John 6:44-45, no man can come unless they have heard and learned, being taught by God. How can learning be equal to believing, when it is the learning of the truth of Christ that leads one to the believing in Him? Aren't these supposed to be held as distinct acts? And isn't this teaching of God that's referred to in John 6:65?
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Here again, believing is paralleled with the coming to Christ in faith. Also, it speaks of a different "giving" to the person by the Father. What didn't the Father give these people that Jesus cites as the reason for their not believing?
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