I have done this topic to death to come to the position I have, believe me it is not one made out of ignorance, it has been very calculated.
BGTF
Job 41 & 39 Dinosaurs
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Sep 7, 2007.
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I have to disagree with you, BGTF,
Here is Job's description of the leviathan:
Sparks of fire leap out.
Out of his mouth goes smoke.
Out of his mouth goes a flame.
Job did not say "it seems as if these things happen" He said the smoke, the fire, the flame ...all are real.
No, my friend, to say this was anything less than a fire breather is to doubt this portion of God's Word as being truth.
It does not say the leviathan's breath was hot, it says fire leapt out that lit coals. -
When did Job live?
When was the book of Job written?
To whom was it addressed?
With the first discovery of dinosaurs 'so-called' being approx 150 years ago, what did these verses mean to those who knew nothing about dinosaurs?
If no one knew anything about dinosaurs 'so-called' prior to 150 years ago, how could these verses be used to strike awe in the hearers, as we now understand them to mean?
With Job intending to be poetry am I to take everything precisely verbatim or not?
If pragmatists (atheists included) believe that these two portions of scripture, though poetic, were actually describing dinosaurs, why then won't they believe the literal account of the Son of God in the gospels?
If these verses in Job actually were the only biblical reference to dinosaurs, would I be willing to hang my hat on them?
All current scientific understanding of dinosaurs puts them in a period that pre-dates creation by several million years. With this understanding should I suspect the creation account or the scientific account?
As I got much further into it, it became clear to me that I personally had not one good biblical reason to believe that dinosaurs ever existed, so 'Here I stand, my conscience is captive to the word of God'.....
I also understand my position on this issue is a little unorthodox, and disagreement on it is much expected and much understood.
On the humorous side however, it can be a paradoxical sight to see atheists attempt to 'prove' dinosaurs to me...... :)
BGTF -
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As far as science goes, I do not believe their dating system is correct. The Bible records the earth to be very young... certainly not millions and billions of years old.
BGTF, why do you find it so hard to believe the Bible concerning the leviathan? You believe the Bible's account of the earth? Why not the truth of Job 41? -
There is also evidence that the earth is “young”. Actually, all the “evidence” is the same. It is the interpretation of that evidence that differs, and that interpretation is based in large part on one’s presuppositions.
Also, you do realize that single fossilized bones have been found that would be too large to have been that of a moose or some other extant animal. -
After I had come to my position on the matter and was being denigrated for it by many, I did find this guy who had similar questions, albeit he did come to a few different conclusions.
http://internet.ocii.com/~dpwozney/dinosaur.htm
From all the information I have reviewed to determine the answers to my questions, I believe there is much more grounds to deny the existence of dinosaurs than to believe their existence.
BGTF -
So throw away the books of the Bible that clearly describe the leviathan as a fire-breathing dragon who causes the deep to boil since you don't believe he actually breathes fire as the Word of God proclaims it does.
To say that it is nothing more than a crocodile with hot breath is utter ridiculous. The Word of God says the fire from its mouth lights coals.
Have you ever seen a crocodile burn a piece of coal with its hot breath?
Not even Steve Irwin said anything as ridiculous as you are implying here. -
When was the book of Job written?
ccdnt said:Same answer.Click to expand...Click to expand...
To whom was it addressed?
ccdnt said:Regardless of this answer, the entire Bible (God’s Word) was meant for everyone.Click to expand...Click to expand...
With the first discovery of dinosaurs 'so-called' being approx 150 years ago, what did these verses mean to those who knew nothing about dinosaurs?
ccdnt said:Why do you assume these people would know nothing about dinosaurs? Actually, what you bring up helps prove a point. Why would God give examples of animals that people would know nothing about? This suggests that these people were familiar with these animals.Click to expand...Click to expand...
If no one knew anything about dinosaurs 'so-called' prior to 150 years ago, how could these verses be used to strike awe in the hearers, as we now understand them to mean?
ccdnt said:Exactly! A better understanding is that these people were familiar with animals that we now know as dinosaurs.Click to expand...Click to expand...
With Job intending to be poetry am I to take everything precisely verbatim or not?
ccdnt said:Is that the problem here or is it because of the belief that the earth is billions of years old and dinosaurs supposedly existed millions of years ago and became extinct before humans had “evolved”?Click to expand...Click to expand...
If pragmatists (atheists included) believe that these two portions of scripture, though poetic, were actually describing dinosaurs, why then won't they believe the literal account of the Son of God in the gospels?
ccdnt said:Do you know atheists that believe that these verses are describing dinosaurs? I could see where that could be the case, as they would probably use this to say that the Bible could not be true since dinosaurs died out millions of years ago (as they would probably believe).Click to expand...Click to expand...
If these verses in Job actually were the only biblical reference to dinosaurs, would I be willing to hang my hat on them?
ccdnt said:Even if this were the only reference to dinosaurs in the Bible, what would be the problem with that? How many times does the Bible have to mention something for it to be true?Click to expand...Click to expand...
All current scientific understanding of dinosaurs puts them in a period that pre-dates creation by several million years. With this understanding should I suspect the creation account or the scientific account?
ccdnt said:Actually, you are mistaken in your comment about “[all] current scientific understanding of dinosaurs…” There is not a universal agreement among scientists as to when dinosaurs existed. There are many Ph.D. scientists that believe in a six day creation as described in the book of Genesis that took place about 6,000 years ago, and they believe that God created the dinosaurs on day six with the rest of the land animals.Click to expand...Click to expand...
ccdnt said:Question - If you saw enough “proof” to convince you dinosaurs did/do exist, would this undermine your faith in God/Jesus or the Bible? (I say “do exist” because there is a possibility that one or more types of dinosaurs could still be alive today…especially in Africa. If a living dinosaur were discovered it would not be the first time that an animal believed by secular scientists to have become extinct millions of years ago to turn up living today. The Coelacanth is an example of this.)Click to expand...
If man can go to the moon, you would think he would be able to find a living dinosaur by now if there actually was one. 'Irrefutable' proof of the existence of dinosaurs is something that will only come when I see one.
ccdnt said:Also, you do realize that single fossilized bones have been found that would be too large to have been that of a moose or some other extant animal.Click to expand...
BGTF -
standingfirminChrist said:So throw away the books of the Bible that clearly describe the leviathan as a fire-breathing dragon who causes the deep to boil since you don't believe he actually breathes fire as the Word of God proclaims it does.
To say that it is nothing more than a crocodile with hot breath is utter ridiculous. The Word of God says the fire from its mouth lights coals.
Have you ever seen a crocodile burn a piece of coal with its hot breath?
Not even Steve Irwin said anything as ridiculous as you are implying here.Click to expand...
With the conditioning towards dinosaurs being so prevalent, I never expect anyone to believe this at first hearing. Just sit back for a while and analyze some of the points I have brought up.
BGTF -
ByGracethroughFaith said:SFIC
With the conditioning towards dinosaurs being so prevalent, I never expect anyone to believe this at first hearing. Just sit back for a while and analyze some of the points I have brought up.
BGTFClick to expand...
BGTF,
Thanks for bringing awesome points. I have a question thought, What are the Dinosaur Bones that Scientist show to prove they existed? God Bless!! -
TaliOrlando said:BGTF,
Thanks for bringing awesome points. I have a question thought, What are the Dinosaur Bones that Scientist show to prove they existed? God Bless!!Click to expand...
There is some additional info on this site as to this guy's ideas on the bones, but I don't draw the same conclusions as he does.
http://internet.ocii.com/~dpwozney/dinosaur.htm
BGTF -
ByGracethroughFaith said:SFIC
With the conditioning towards dinosaurs being so prevalent, I never expect anyone to believe this at first hearing. Just sit back for a while and analyze some of the points I have brought up.
BGTFClick to expand...
Again, when is the last time you ever heard of a crocodile breathing fire from its mouth and lighting coal with the flame?
I'll choose to believe the Word of God. It was not an alligator or crocodile, nor any animal we know today. -
ByGracethroughFaith said:Click to expand...
Here is a debate between David and antother on dinos.
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com/goodies/dinodebate.html
and part II
http://www.coldfusionvideo.com/goodies/dinodebate2.html
To be honest, I am not surprised BGTF thinks dinos never existed.
It goes well with his other biblical thoughts. -
standingfirminChrist said:No need to analyze your points. The Word of God discards those points.
Again, when is the last time you ever heard of a crocodile breathing fire from its mouth and lighting coal with the flame?
I'll choose to believe the Word of God. It was not an alligator or crocodile, nor any animal we know today.Click to expand...
BGTF -
I believe the leviathan to be some kind of dragon.
The Strongs defines the 'livyathan' as a sea monster or dragon of sorts.
We do know his skin is said by Scripture to be inpenetrable, which also would rule the crocodile out.
I believe it is a fire breathing dragon as I stated earlier in the thread.
Now, the question is... is this leviathan extinct now? or is it possible that it is still out in the sea somewhere?
I have heard some say it is the Loch Ness monster, but I cannot agree. The leviathan's home is the sea, not a lake. -
Magnetic Poles said:Fresh water fish cannot live in salt water.Click to expand...
Ok... i have thought on this... (watch out.. my brain is breathing smoke!)
Salt water fish would have been in the ocean.
Fresh water fish in the waters on land...
It starts to rain...and rain... and rain....
Wouldn't the density of the water be different?
Wouldn't salt water be denser than fresh water... (I see an experiment coming!!)
If so, the Water at the bottom of the oceans would have still been salt water.. while the water over the land would have been fresh water...
Ok... that's my thoughts as of now... -
standingfirminChrist said:I believe the leviathan to be some kind of dragon.
The Strongs defines the 'livyathan' as a sea monster or dragon of sorts.
We do know his skin is said by Scripture to be inpenetrable, which also would rule the crocodile out.
I believe it is a fire breathing dragon as I stated earlier in the thread.
Now, the question is... is this leviathan extinct now? or is it possible that it is still out in the sea somewhere?
I have heard some say it is the Loch Ness monster, but I cannot agree. The leviathan's home is the sea, not a lake.Click to expand...
We are looking for an animal that has never been found, one that has never even been recorded, and yet this thing no one has ever seen is meant to strike awe in those who know of it. :confused:
BGTF -
tinytim said:This is the most intriguing statement in this whole thread...
Ok... i have thought on this... (watch out.. my brain is breathing smoke!)
Salt water fish would have been in the ocean.
Fresh water fish in the waters on land...
It starts to rain...and rain... and rain....
Wouldn't the density of the water be different?
Wouldn't salt water be denser than fresh water... (I see an experiment coming!!)
If so, the Water at the bottom of the oceans would have still been salt water.. while the water over the land would have been fresh water...
Ok... that's my thoughts as of now...Click to expand...
That being said one of the most intriguing things I have been pondering this last year has been salt content in the oceans. Is it static, increasing or decreasing?
There is a case for each, but I don't know of anyone studying it yet.
Also, where does underground freshwater come from? And why does the salt content in underground water vary? Is there a process that removes the salt underground allowing ocean water to be recycled? I would love to hear about this if anyone knows.
BGTF
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