Once again, you rip that passage out of context when you do not place it in the context of 3:1-3. The comparison is being made that the Corinthians are in fact just exactly like the lost. Even the saved in 3:3 have an inability int he same way those lost in 2:14 do. Since 3:1-3 ruins your total inability theory you run from it as you did in this post. Every time you use 2:14 without 3:1-3 the way you do you use it in error.
John:6:38-39
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Mar 26, 2015.
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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1 Corinthians 2:14 ψυχικος δε ανθρωπος ου δεχεται τα του πνευματος του θεου μωρια γαρ αυτω εστιν και ου δυναται γνωναι οτι πνευματικως ανακρινεται
I accused you of translating something that wasn't in the text. If you quoted another version, I didn't see the reference which I already told you.
Now if you are honest you will take the verse and show in an honest and exegetical method how the verse says: "the person without the Spirit."
If you can't do that, then you are being dishonest with the text--even if you are using someone else. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
But, I'll bet you can't tell me why the the "but," though second in word order, appears at the beginning of the sentence....
For instance, there is no Greek word that I'm aware of for "forever." Instead, the biblical authors (in the New Testament) use an idiom, something like "ages upon ages." But, it would be absolutely incorrect to look at the cumbersome Greek expression and insist on the lexical definition of αἰών and, as a result, argue that the Bible never references eternity as being eternal.
If you were to analyze Paul's entire discourse, you'd see the NIV gets the meaning right. It may be a dynamic equivalent, as opposed to a literal translation, but it does get the meaning here right--and that meaning is based in large part on the context of the entire passage.
ETA:
But, since you're so hung-up on the lexical term... Here's the BDAG entry for this word (used adjectivally):
ⓐ adj. ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος (Hippol., Ref. 5, 27, 3) an unspiritual pers., one who merely functions bodily, without being touched by the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:14. σῶμα ψυχ. a physical body 15:44ab. The wisdom that does not come fr. above is called ἐπίγειος, ψυχική (unspiritual), δαιμονιώδης Js 3:15.Now, the BDAG is the so-called "Industry Standard" for Greek lexicons. So, in a word, yes--it does mean to convey "the person without the spirit."
William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 1100.
The Archangel -
I had quoted the start of verse 14 and then the start of verse 15 respectively in the NIV.
It does indeed have "natural man" in a number of versions for 1 Cor. 2:14. But it also has unspiritual and even non-Christian among other readings.
The point being is that the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is Spiritless --an unsaved individual. Not a babe in Christ --not even born again.
Next to the KJV the NIV is the most well-known English translation and is the top seller. And yet you made the inane claim that you haven't come across it.
You are the one who enjoys making stuff up and have the audacity to call me on my integrity. You take the proverbial cake. -
I already cited in my previous post where I identified the NIV when quoting 1 Corinthians 2:14 back in post 67 (3/28/2015). I had aso cited the NIV by name with that text in post #89, 3/29/2015.
DHK revels in falsehoods. He might as well be called the prevaricator-in-chief.
He is too proud to confess that he has borne false testimony against me --repeatedly. So he is content to rest in his state of unrepentance. Not exactly model conduct for a moderator or, more importantly, a Christian. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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He needs to come clean regarding his base habits and apologize for his gross behavior. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have seen no gross behavior. What I have seen is his disagreement with you and your exaggeration of his posts.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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When the guy says that I have made up my own translation. --
When DHK says he has not come across any treanslation that says "the person without the Spirit." --
When the mod says again that I am just making things up. --
When the Canadian says again that I am making up the text --that I am making things up. --
When DHK says that it is just lies on my part. --
When DHK, the Canadian mod says I have deliberately lied and have been dishonest about the translation. --
Then I come to the conclusion that he enjoys breaking the 9th commandment. And his posts on this thread is not the only evidence --he has used the same tactics in other threads against me and other posters with no apology forthcoming. That's just the way he is. -
The word natural, as you say means "unspiritual." But "unspiritual" does not have to mean "unsaved," and that is not what the context demands. This is where you fail and others fail. Study this verse in the entirety of chapter two and three right from the beginning to the end of chapter three. Consistently throughout these two chapters Paul reverts back to this same theme of comparing spiritual with unspiritual, carnal with non-carnal, or spiritual with carnal. The contrast is there. It is summed up in the judgment seat of Christ. You know well that at the Bema Seat of Christ there will be no unregenerate there--just spiritual and carnal. The spiritual will receive rewards worthy of gold, silver and precious stones. The carnal will receive their rewards: wood, hay and stubble--but they themselves shall be saved. Their salvation is secured. There is no loss of salvation here, only loss of reward, for the carnal way they have lived on earth.
The contrast is consistently between the spiritual Christian and the carnal Christian all the way throughout both of these chapters: two and three. -
Snippets From Various Commentators re: 1 Cor. 2:14
Matthew Henry : Thus, the natural man, the man destitute of the Spirit of God
John Gill : an unregenerate man
Adam Clarke : the man who is in a state of naturem without the regenerating grace of God
Barnes Notes : It refers to unregenerate people
Robertson's Word Pictures : A natural man, an unregenerate man
Wesley's Explanatory Notes : But the natural man --That is, every man who hath not the Spirit
Peter Pett's Commentary on the Bible : the man without the Spirit, man as he is without God
Thomas D.D. Constable's Expository Notes of the Bible : The natural man is any person who does not possess the Holy Spirit, namely, unbelievers.
John Piper : The unspiritual man is the natural man, the man who is merely human, who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I listened to Dr. Michael Barrett last night on this passage : the unconverted man dead in trespasses and sins. -
Neither does the verse require that meaning.
Birds of a feather flock together.
How many of the above are Calvinists?
Never mind, it really doesn't matter.
The point is this: It may describe an unsaved man. But chapter three makes clear that the Corinthians were acting just like the person described in 2:14--whether unsaved or not. If the person in 2:14 is unsaved, the person in 1Cor.3:1-5 is acting just like him, and therefore is carnal.
We are in the world, but that does not give us license to act according to the world. That is what the Corinthians were doing.
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Brethren--brothers in Christ: Christians.
"I could not speak unto you as unto spiritual." They were Christians, but they were not spiritual.
"But as unto carnal." They were Christians and carnal at the same time--Carnal Christians. Why?
--One of the reasons: "babes in Christ"--that is what Paul calls them. They were immature spiritually. They had not grown.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
--They are carnal because they are not able to be fed with meat. After 1 1/2 years Paul still has feed them milk. What an atrocity! They should be ready for meat, but because of their carnality they are not ready for the meat of God's Word.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
How are they carnal?
Among you there is:
Envy,
Strife,
divisions,
And therefore they are Carnal. Carnal Christians. Immature in both spiritual and their practical every day life.
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
--They are carnal because of their divisiveness. Their church was divided into various sects. It was known for its divisiveness. There was a lot of carnality here.
Thus the description of 1Cor.2:14 described them. They could not understand the things of the Spirit of God because they walked according to the course of this world, and not according to the Spirit of God. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
It does matter.
This unteachable spirit is why you do not have truth here and in other places.
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The one in 1 Cor. 2:14 does not have the Holy Spirit. That person is not a Christian, period.
Again :
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Let it sink in DHK. This person cannot understand the things that come from the Spirit of God because there is no indwelling of the Spirit --hence no comprehension --no discernment.
This person regards the things that come from the Spirit of God as foolishness. That is a dangerous state to be in. Certainly an unregenerate state. We read in 1 Cor. 1:18 :
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who who are perishing...
Get that? The very same person is spoken of in 1 Cor. 1:18 and 1 Cor. 2:14 --this person is still in their sins, without hope, without God in this world.
But [I love it] to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
In the very same verse it speaks of the lost and the saved. It's much like 2 Cor. 2:15 and 16 in that respect.
For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task? -
I tried to make it about 50/50. But the explanation of this verse is not about Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Even most non-Calvinistic commentators say that the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 is unregenerate. I am not aware of any Calvinistic scholar who insists that the person in 1 Cor. 2:14 was saved.
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When someone takes a swing at their theology, realize they're wrong, yet try to kick against the truth...
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