Are you claiming that all are saved? since all are blessed?
MB
John 6.44
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Barry Johnson, Aug 11, 2020.
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk -
1. Would you say Abraham is saved? Yes/No
2. Do you hold being saved to be different from receiving eternal life? Yes/No
3. Do you believe all men today, in addition to believing Jesus' death and resurrection, must also believe Jesus is the Son of God to be saved? Yes/No
Obviously, you might have nuances and may want to qualify the above with detailed distinctions - but could you please do so after replying simply yes/no to the above, just to give me a starting framework to even follow where you're heading (we're already so far from the OP having not made much progress). If perchance, as some others do (and this may not be you), you feel tempted to comment vaguely on how it's useless to explain these things to me and quit the conversation, it still wouldn't take you as long to type in single characters(Y/N) per question before you leave. Kindly indulge me. And likewise, I am equally ready to answer any of your qns - I have already replied to your earlier qn on whether I do preach Jn 6:40 today and I say a boolean Yes to that. -
ESV: See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!
Another's got a different copy of the English language Bible where God says in Heb 7:4,
NASB: Now observe how great this man was to whom Abraham, the patriarch, gave a tenth of the choicest spoils.
Yet another in Young's Literal Translation,
YLT: And see how great this one is, to whom also a tenth Abraham the patriarch did give out of the best of the spoils,
GNB: You see, then, how great he was. Abraham, our famous ancestor, gave him one tenth of all he got in the battle.
And finally,
KJV: Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
And how exactly are we to see/observe Melchisedec in the simplest sense of the word 'see' - do you not bear any interpretative principles to this? How would you convince someone reading the ESV who insisted that Melchisedec must be visible today because "God has written his words in simple terms"? -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Your comment(s) above show that your issue is Calvinism, not what the text says. If you cannot or will not deal with the text itself and constantly rail against your opponent's system, then you are beholden to your system in the same way you accuse others of being beholden to their system. This is nothing more than projective posturing on your part. You really should argue the text, not the person.
What is more... It would seem that you are insisting that for anyone else to be "right" they would have to agree with you. While I'm sure you think yourself to be right, agreeing with you would lead me into grave theological error, as well as syntactical, semantic, and grammatical error. It is rather small minded to insist everyone agree with you--especially when you run afoul of what the text itself says. In most circles you cannot refer to a duck as a car and expect sane, rational people to agree with you. It is the same in this instance.
The Archangel -
Answer to #1
To the way your question is framed "is saved" yes.He was justified by believing God in the OT and his sins were washed away in the NT. Nobody whose sins are not washed away are saved. Now look, No one who has sin on them are saved and noone who has sin in them can have the indwelling Holy Spirit. These two things amount to salvation, see Titus 3:5 and Re 1:5 and context. The fact that you men do not know that and in fact argue against it is absolutely astounding to me given that you have a copy of the word of God that does not make that ambiguous and is a demonstration of how blind false religion can make someone.
Ex 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.See numbers 14:8
Don't you know that God would have taken the law away if men could have been perfected some other way than by the blood of Christ?
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
When John introduced Jesus Christ in his gospel, he said that he was the Word, flesh, and God, He said that in him was LIFE. He was not just looking for something to say. He was saying the truth. He is the only man ever born into the world that had LIFE in him.What was that life? It was the Spirit of God. It was then and it is now. The Spirit is life according to Rom 8:9 and other places I could mention.He was the "son " of God. a trinity, soul, body, and Spirit of God. He was not the only son of God like some of the bad translations say, but he was the only begotten son of God. Adam was a son of God and likewise was a soul, body and Spirit when God created him. What does it mean to have eternal life. It means to have the eternal God present with you who has promised he will never leave you or forsake you He says in Eph 4:30 that the Spirit of God seals us as sons of God. He did not say that to Adam and Adam died a spiritual death and all his offspring are absent of God and need to be born of God.All are in his image, soul and body and belongs to his family.If and when a man receives the Spirit of God he becomes a son of God and he has eternal life because the Spirit of God indwells him. This is THE gift of God that he promises to give every man who believes in him. There are two sides to belief. Repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ. There is more to know but this should suffice to answer question 2.
John 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Question #3
The answer is yes. If Jesus is not God come in the flesh we are all in deep, deep trouble because no man has the righteousness to give us. The Spirit of God is called the righteousness of God. He it was who empowered Jesus Christ to live a sinless life in a weak body.
Salvation is acquiring the righteousness that God demands.The wonderful and gracious God made a way to credit righteousness to men who did not have it . He justified believers in what he said to them by imputing their faith FOR righteousness. But that did not take away their sin. It just moved them in a right relationship with God until the blood was shed. Will you please read the whole of Gal chapter 3 right here because that is what it says.I am not making this up.
I would like to expand on these answers later. -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
The Archangel -
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1. "He(Abraham) was justified by believing God in the OT and his sins were washed away in the NT. Nobody whose sins are not washed away are saved."
2. "This(the Spirit of God) is THE gift of God that he promises to give every man who believes in him. "
3. "The wonderful and gracious God made a way to credit righteousness to men who did not have it . "
You seem to be stuck in thinking that somehow, just because the reformed view holds Jn 6 as speaking to us too today, that they're not preaching the true Gospel? The Gospel command to all men is to behold the Son of God, repent of our sinning, believe in Christ's death and resurrection to wash away all our sins and to give us life by His Spirit. What of this do you disagree with as being a false Gospel?Mention specifics. Preaching Jn 6 in no way negates any of this, just as us preaching Gen 12:3 today still upholds the very Gospel message - doesn't Gen 12:3 speak to Christians today as to the work God is doing as part of the Gospel message? -
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Who has blinded them and given them the spirit of slumber? God.
And who were those who obtained the righteousness of God without being so blinded? The elect jews.
And on what basis were these jews elected? By grace and not works.
How is election assuredly by grace and not works? by electing before any man's good or evil, before they were even born.
These are direct Scriptural citations - which of these do you disagree with? Addressing them each on their own, preferably in short posts or as points, would help not lose the message in the forest. I am vaguely aware of your belief in Christ alone being the true elect and all those in Him being termed the elect after they believe and are placed in Him - but in these passages, we are talking about the effects of election as occurring before and leading to the very seeing and hearing and believing itself. How can the effect logically occur before the cause? -
MB -
Reformed proof text for limited atonement is John 6:44. Only those who are preselected before the foundation of the world to be saved will be drawn.This is an accurate assessment of the teaching of the Reformed. This election is a foundational doctrine of the Christian faith. No one will be drawn if they are not elected. Is this not what you believe and teach as a Calvinist? That is not what I teach and it is not the teaching of non reformed Christians.It is a point of contention.I teach that Jesus Christ died for the sin of the world in a one time event at Calvary, that God the Father testified about through men he had chosen for the task, The Holy Spirit placed those who believe into his body by the new birth and God the Father elected them by virtue of having elected Christ before the foundation of the world. A capsule view of this is in 2 Thess 2:13-14. Our Lord Jesus Christ rightly gets the glory for our salvation.
The problem I have with Reformed doctrine of drawing as a fundamental Christian teaching is that it causes men to not believe God in plain statements he makes through his apostles, like "God so loved the world."
Why are you distancing yourself from what you actually believe? -
No one can come (Total Inability) unless God draws them (Irresistible Grace) and the Son will raise them up at the last day (Preservation of the Saints).
Preselected is more Romans 8:28-30 and Ephesians 1:3-6.
Limited Atonement is more John 10:14-16.
God bless. -
Rom 10:1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
He goes on to say they were not saved because they held on to the principle of law for their salvation. He also said this, remembering the time line;
Rom10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Do you believe that ivdavid? Do you believe God had his arms outstretched to Israel as a father to his son in AD 58?
The works of the Godhead, all in Rom 8
Christ died for sinners
The Father justifies the sinners who believes
The Spirit quickens the sinner whom the Father justifies and places him in Christ..
Lk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.(supper time is at the end of the day)
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. -
Anyway, to clarify, I am not a calvinist in that I reject predestined unconditional reprobation and condemnation. I do believe that predestined unconditional individual election is biblical. I believe God has offered salvation to ALL men as in all, not just the elect. I believe God did so out of His love for ALL men, not just the elect. His sure mercies of David are sure only for the elect - but they are still available for anyone else, only conditional upon their receiving. There is no lack of intent from God's end - any rejection or condemnation is purely predicated on man's will to disobey in unbelief. Any acceptance by man is evidence of God's grace working it out in him.
Anything received by the grace of God is a gift - it could be righteousness (Rom 5:17), eternal life (Rom 6:23) and the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38).
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
What was to be given to them so that they could believe and come to Jesus? Whatever that was, is by grace, and hence a gift too. -
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How does the purpose of God according to election stand if it is based on what good these jews do after they are born? -
4 and that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:" ( Galatians 2:3-4 ).
" Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 but hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 to Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour." ( Titus 1:1-4 ).
Titus was a "Greek", and Paul addressed him according to the faith of God's elect.
" Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father [was] a Greek:" ( Acts of the Apostles 16:1 ).
Timothy was half Jew and half Gentile ( Greek ).
In addition, please see Ephesians 1:1-11, Colossians 2:12-13 and 1 Thessalonians 1:1-4.
Pay careful attention to the words on the page, MB.
They give quite a bit of the information you are looking for.
10 but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
11 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." ( 2 Timothy 1:9-11 ).
All believers are saved and called with a holy calling, which was not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace...
A purpose and grace which was given to us ( those who have believed ), "in Christ Jesus" before the world began.
May God bless you in your studies, sir.
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