Thank you Ruiz.
I love LU and I am praying that God will be glorified through all of this.
I am disappointed in the responses of my dear brothers in Christ who think that public statements by leaders should be given a pass. Apparently Ankerberg can speak out, but we little foot soldiers must shut our mouths.
Ok, guys, you have won me over. I agree with John Ankerberg. Caner's testimony is completely true and anyone who says otherwise is unchristian and unbiblical.
John Ankerberg and Ergun Caner
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Paul33, Jun 23, 2010.
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Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Paul33 Response #2
Thank you for your thoughtful and timely response.
All I am simply saying is that rumor, innuendo, personal opinion, et al that are "cussed" and discussed here in the open forum by all of us is not fruitful, is it? or even Christian?
I think we should wait until the Liberty panel investigation is done before we "cast any stones!!!" Lord knows, if our closets were opened for all to see, and the "purposes and intents of our hearts" were on display and parade; we would want some grace. And I am not sure that we are extending enough grace to Caner and Liberty and the brother with the TV program.
That is all I am saying.
And by-the-by, to call someone a "liar" in an open forum such as this says much about the Christian character of that brother, does it not?
"That is all!" :praying: -
Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Preaching Jesus Response
"That is all!" :praying: -
What is being discussed are public statements by public leaders.
I recall a time when Jesus told the religious leaders of his day that they were of their father the devil. Something to do with lying and not holding to the truth. You might want to look it up. It is found in John 8:42-59. Well, the Jews immediately called him names. They said he was demon-possesed. Right about here, I imagine, some well meaning follower of Jesus told him he should not call religious leaders liars. It gets you into all kinds of trouble.
What do you think? -
You're not Jesus.
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I was wondering how long it would take for someone to post "You're not Jesus." Not long!
Well, here is another example of calling out a brother or sister for lying. Remember Peter's confrontation with Ananias and Sapphira. They lied about their gift to the apostles. The next thing you know, they dropped dead.
I am so relieved to know that lying is no big deal anymore. Whether it is the lies I tell, or the lies my friends tell in defending me. Whew! -
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Rhetorician AdministratorAdministrator
Paul 33 Reponse #3
Thank you for asking me what I think? You know deep down what I think.
I think it is unreasonable to argue with someone who is unreasonable! If you see no problems with maligning a brother who needs help, support, and prayers; then there is nothing I have to tell you that could possible persuade you. The brother is guilty, and anyone who defends him is guilty, in your mind.
I am reminded of an old western movie I once saw. They were going to give the accused murderer a fair trial before they took him out and hung him.
That is what I think! :thumbsup:
"That is all!" -
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Rhetorician said: ↑Paul,
Thank you for asking me what I think? You know deep down what I think.
I think it is unreasonable to argue with someone who is unreasonable! If you see no problems with maligning a brother who needs help, support, and prayers; then there is nothing I have to tell you that could possible persuade you. The brother is guilty, and anyone who defends him is guilty, in your mind.
I am reminded of an old western movie I once saw. They were going to give the accused murderer a fair trial before they took him out and hung him.
That is what I think! :thumbsup:
"That is all!"Click to expand...
Thank you for indicating that Ankerberg needs help, support, and prayers. Or did you mean Caner?
Rhet, why don't you just admit that your previous statement about Ankerberg "only defending his friend" leaves a lot to be desired. You know it is not right to lie even if you are only defending a friend. Well, I am at least assuming this. Maybe you actually believe that Caner's testimony is completely true and Ankerberg was right to state this. Is that what you believe?
There truly does appear to be no fear of God in the church. You can say whatever you want, knowing that any criticism that comes your way will be met by your supporters with the false accusation of unchristian and unbiblical. -
Grasshopper said: ↑It's not rumor when you can verify with his own words.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3960
On the DL today I raised a simple question: where is the church in the Ergun Caner Scandal? Why is it that Liberty University is being seen as the final authority in determining "the truth"?
Why extend grace to someone who has yet to acknowledge any wrong doing, nor has he asked for any.
Not if it was true. Was it wrong to call Jimmy Swaggart an adulterer?Click to expand...
I am beginning to wonder if the Gospel is really as good as we claim it is. If the Gospel is the solution to the sin problem, why do so many people have a problem confessing their sins? Does the Gospel not work?
I would think that we would rush to acknowledge our sins so that we could receive the forgiveness that is found only in the Gospel. Repentance should be a joy and not a curse, because when we repent we find forgiveness.
Does repentance not work once we are saved? Does being saved mean never having to say "I have sinned"?Click to expand... -
Despite the weaknesses and political correctness of the official statement of LU with regard to Caner, one can still make out the truth that Caner lied and his contract as "dean" and president (implied) will not be renewed.
Will John Ankerberg now post a new statement on his web page calling LU unchristian and unbiblical for attacking the self-sacrifice of Caner?
Or will John Ankerberg retract his statement that the testimony of Caner is completely true? -
Paul33 said: ↑Does Ankerberg's support make you wonder about other things you have seen on his show?Click to expand...
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Revmitchell said: ↑There is not enough evidence to determine this. Those who have not spoken with Caner personally cannot know. SadClick to expand...
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Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMartin said: ↑That is simply not true. All one has to do is look at the legal documents and listen to several of Dr. Caner's sermons. What one will find is clear and inexcusable contradictions. One does not mistake where one was born or what country one grew up in. As far as I am concerned this issue is closed. However to say that "there is not enough evidence" to be able to determine if his testimony is totally true is just ignoring the evidence that has been presented in various places. Liberty University looked at the evidence and agreed that there were some serious issues. As a result, they removed him from his position of leadership. This shows that the evidence is clear enough.Click to expand...
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Revmitchell said: ↑Without giving Caner a personal and full hearing it is improper to make a judgment. All that can be said is Liberty talked with him and found some part of his statements problematic. What those are we cannot know. It matters not what you think you have determined by listening to any recordings. It is improper to make judgments of him unless you have heard his own explanation.Click to expand...
Revmitchell said: ↑To do anything else is unChristian and ungodly. And to continue to run on about it on this board is as has been already said. Backbiting and gossip. Let your conscience be your guide.Click to expand...
I don't have to personally talk to Ergun Caner to see and point out the many contradictions in his speaking/writing. It is public record. Those who try to assert that Dr. Caner has done nothing wrong, and those who try to silence those who point out the problems with many of his claims, are are examples of the real problem here. The real problem, for me, is not so much Dr. Ergun Caner (though his behavior is clearly problematic). The real problem here is an evangelical community that is more concerned about celebrity than truth, emotion than fact, and style than substance. Dr. Caner is just the latest example of this problem. Far too many evangelicals are willing to uncritically accept and defend someone like Eurgan Caner. -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMartin said: ↑Among other things, I would love to hear how one explainsClick to expand...
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Ruiz said: ↑Two points on this statement.
First, because of recordings, we do not need to have "been there" to hear the full context of the statements in question and to make a decision as to their legitimacy.
Secondly, I have not talked to Caner about the charges. Liberty is investigating and I trust there are some reason to investigate. This does not mean he is guilty, but it means there were situations which demand Liberty to take the charges serious.Click to expand...
Back to the OP....yes, it gives me a moment of pause to say that Ankerberg is supporting Ergun here. But that doesn't mean Ankerberg's whole well is poisioned. Neither is Ergun's, by the way. If a broken watch can be right twice a day...well, you know the rest.
I don't have to personally talk to Ergun Caner to see and point out the many contradictions in his speaking/writing. It is public record. Those who try to assert that Dr. Caner has done nothing wrong, and those who try to silence those who point out the problems with many of his claims, are are examples of the real problem here. The real problem, for me, is not so much Dr. Ergun Caner (though his behavior is clearly problematic). The real problem here is an evangelical community that is more concerned about celebrity than truth, emotion than fact, and style than substance. Dr. Caner is just the latest example of this problem. Far too many evangelicals are willing to uncritically accept and defend someone like Eurgan Caner.Click to expand... -
Revmitchell Well-Known MemberSite SupporterTomVols said: ↑I'll go a step further. There are some that seem as though that, even if they had firsthand evidence, they aren't going to say one word against Ergun but they'll attack James White all day long. Sad. Just because I don't like someone's soteriology or eschatology doesn't mean I think they're a liar with bad motives.
Back to the OP....yes, it gives me a moment of pause to say that Ankerberg is supporting Ergun here. But that doesn't mean Ankerberg's whole well is poisioned. Neither is Ergun's, by the way. If a broken watch can be right twice a day...well, you know the rest.
Martin, this is logical, Biblical, and sensible. How dare you! You pagan! :laugh: Sad that you will be attacked for this, if you haven't already.Click to expand...
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