Neal is is great to live in a black and white world and to pick out one scripture that suits you and stick to it. I applaud you (but I will stay away from your church, better for both of us).
We interpret 1 timothy differently, but then I guess we probably interpret Acts differently when Aquilla and Priscilla instruct Apollos. In fact this passage speaks more to a seminary type setting than the passage in 1 timothy which is usually intrepreted for womens conduct in church.
Question, just to see if you are consistent in you desire to not come under the authority of a woman, do you read texbooks written by women? Do you allow men to use sunday school cirruculm written by women, or men to sit in classes that the sunday school cirriculum was written by a woman? By definition, they are putting themselves under the authority of a woman by using that cirriculum.
John Leland Center in Virginia
Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges & Seminaries' started by Speedpass, Jul 11, 2003.
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God Bless You, Jimmy.
Neal -
yes I know that Aquilla was a man, but the passage in Acts says that Aquilla AND Priscilla instructed Appolos. The reason I see this as similar to a seminary is that Appolos came to them with basic knowlege, Aquilla and Priscilla gave him further instruction, after which Appolos was sent out to do missions.
I do applaud you on your consistency, although I'm sure that Lifeway would like to have your church using their cirruclum, and you do support them with your CP dollars. -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library. I doubt that the chapter is more than 4000 words at most. I’m guessing you read more than that every time you cruise the Baptist Board.
But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue. :rolleyes:
If it makes you feel better, E. Earle Ellis teaches at Southwestern Seminary and in widely recognized as one of the world’s foremost authority on Paul. He is also extremely conservative with scripture. -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
As a Bible College grad, I had women teachers. I learned about outlining and parallel structure from Miss Laughlin in ENG 101 (Grammar and Compostion). Then there was my sophomore lady Eng. and Amer. Lit teacher. But, my practical and systematic theology teachers were all males. At the time, Mrs. Hollowood taught a section of Christian Doctrine. However, it was an all female class. (And that is quite in keeping with 1TIM.) Looking back at it, knowing Mrs. H, I wish I could have been a fly on the wall of that classroom. In many ways, she is fully her husband's equal in the field of systematic theology.
Concerning Mr. Ellis' position, unless and until it is presented here in precise, it is not easily available. I just did an Amazon search and found that while there were three used copies for sale, there were no new ones to be had. So, insisting that those of us who are not familiar with the work cited acquire a copy is a poor argument. (Besides, my wife would not at all be happy with me spending from 10.49 to 31.47USD for a book I buy only for an discussion on this Board.)
[ July 25, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ] -
And you comment would be valid if I worshiped Paige Patterson and feared him. But I don't. I didn't even know who the guy was until I came to school here last year. My faith is far bigger than the SBC. Keeping them happy is the least of my concerns. So please, get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what my situation is and and what I think.
May the Lord Richly Bless You,
Neal -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
As for his teaching at Southwestern, sorry in my circles that's a null reference. Not a negative nor a positive one mind you, just that the school in and of its self carries no weight to me and mine.
[ July 25, 2003, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Squire Robertsson ] -
As far as the Leland Center being a "partner" with CBF, I could not find any evidence to support this claim at either the Leland website or the CBF's.
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Squire Robertsson:
Concerning Mr. Ellis' position, unless and until it is presented here in precise, it is not easily available. I just did an Amazon search and found that while there were three used copies for sale, there were no new ones to be had.Click to expand...
I’m going to try to speak to Ellis Sunday and ask him permission to quote him very extensively.
Thanks! -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library.Click to expand...
I was somehow under the impression that you live on or near the campus of Southeastern.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Of course you probably know that the word translated “women” can also be translated “wives”Click to expand...
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.Click to expand...
I have had this discussion with other seminary students (at Southwestern) and they have told me point blank that they aren’t interested in studying the issue because it might be detrimental to their careers. :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :(
And you comment would be valid if I worshiped Paige Patterson and feared him. But I don't. I didn't even know who the guy was until I came to school here last year. My faith is far bigger than the SBC.Click to expand...
Keeping them happy is the least of my concerns. So please, get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what my situation is and and what I think.Click to expand...
I never assumed I knew what you think.
Thanks! :D -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by Squire Robertsson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
....I asked you to look at one chapter (about 10 pages) in one book that is probably in your library....Click to expand...
Your insistence on (as we have had a discussion on this matter with you refering to Mr. Ellis before) everyone reading the book is spurious. Though, I assume you gave at least an inkling of Mr. Ellis' views when you said that the women refered to in 1Tim are properly seen as wives and stated the applications of that interpertation.Click to expand...
As for his teaching at Southwestern, sorry in my circles that's a null reference. Not a negative nor a positive one mind you, just that the school in and of its self carries no weight to me and mine.Click to expand...
Dr. Ellis, so far, has taught happily under the rule of the “conservative resurgence” (sic) leadership – so it is a sign that Ellis is not some sort of scripture-denying flaming liberal reactionary. :D -
Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by BibleboyII:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
But of course it may be better that you do not look at Ellis’ book because if you were to change your understanding of what scripture teaches and then feel ethically compelled to be faithful to scripture, your hard work at Southeastern might be in vain because Paige Patterson and the SBC leadership will not allow discussion or dissent on this issue.Click to expand...
Have you ever sat in a class with Dr. Patterson? Since you seem to "know" so much about the way that classes are taught here at SEBTS (under Dr. Patterson's leadership), why don't you explain just how those classes are conducted? </font>Click to expand...
If a person is convinced by scripture that women may be called of God to preach and serve in pastoral roles, then a recent degree from any of the SBC seminaries has little value – Churches in line with the “conservative resurgence” (sic) won’t have you because you’ve deviated from the most recent BF&M and the more moderate churches are going to be suspicious of you because of your theological training under the heavy influence of “conservative” professors.
On a personal note, I decided not to continue my education at Southwestern Seminary (and therefore lost all of my credit for work there) because I realized that a degree from Southwestern would not help me fulfill my calling anymore because of the changes in the SBC.
Neal did not refuse to read the material that you referenced. He said that he would do so when he had time. Therefore, get off his back!Click to expand...
Recently I was having a similar discussion with another member of BaptistBoard who told me he wasn’t going to waste time looking at something he didn’t believe because he had too many other things to do. I suppose I was reacting in light of those comments.
I'll tell ya what; I have a bit of free time before the semester begins. I will get the book you reference from the library in the morning. I'll read the chapter and come back and we can discuss the matter.Click to expand...
However, we'll have to start another thread because this is not the appropriate one to hold such a discussion.Click to expand...
After I have read your reference and we start our discussion just remember that the inerrant Word God is the final authority and not Ellis' interpretation of the Bible.Click to expand...
Oh yeah, to whoever was talking about Sunday School curriculum written by women…Click to expand... -
BB, could that mean that Blackaby might not be the "real" author of Experiencing God ???
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Baptist Believer Well-Known MemberSite SupporterOriginally posted by ExxonMobil:
BB, could that mean that Blackaby might not be the "real" author of Experiencing God ???Click to expand...
Even if she had written "Experiencing God", I strongly suspect that it would have been written from Blackaby's notes and input instead of created in wholecloth by the ghost writer.
In most circumstances, ghost writers simply communicate existing material into a form suitable for a book, although I know specifically of a few circumstances where the ghost writer wrote the book and the "personality" simply made suggestions and approved the text when it was complete. :eek: -
Originally posted by ExxonMobil:
As far as the Leland Center being a "partner" with CBF, I could not find any evidence to support this claim at either the Leland website or the CBF's.Click to expand...
Originally posted by BibleboyII on July 25, 2003:
The bit in the school's statement that says, "Jesus Christ is the interpretative principle for Scripture..." is a nearly direct quote from the long standing CBF mantra on the same subject. Additionally, as rlvaughn pointed out above, the school is affiliated with the BGAV. I would venture to argue that the BGAV has both feet firmly planted in the CBF camp (speaking as a Virginian now living in NC for seminary).
Anyway, this type of topic comes up every so often here on BB. When it does I always ask for someone who espouses a statement such as, "Jesus Christ is the interpretative principle for Scripture..." to please provide a cogent explanation as to how they know the Jesus Christ that they wish to use as the interpretative principle for Scripture, apart from the Scriptures? To date no one has provided a cogent answer.Click to expand...
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