1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Justification from everlasting !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 12, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 3 of 10
  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    Justification is not the act of man, nor is it contingent upon his knowledge of it, but it is solely the act of God the Judge, and is valid from the date that Judge decided the case. God decided on the case of His own Elect before the world began, and Chose them in Christ Eph 1:4;2 Tim 1:9, and in His Righteous verdict gave them Grace and Every Spiritual Blessing for Time and Eternity. Their iniquities which were foreknown by Him, were laid on Christ as He was constituted the Surety of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace Heb 13:20; Isa 53:6, and so God will not impute [lay to the charge] their sins unto them.

    These are they that David said Ps 32:1-2

    1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

    2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    See Also Rom 4:7-8 ; 2 Cor 5:19; Jn 1:47. God will not impute sin to His Elect because He has laid them already on Christ, and so they are Blessed Matt 25:34

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
     
    #41 savedbymercy, Jul 16, 2011
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    As usual you fail to distinguish between God's salvation of His elect ACCORDING TO ETERNAL PURPOSE versus according to APPLICATION in time and space.

    The only act of Justification by God before the world began is ACCORDING TO ETERNAL PURPOSE not application. What God purposed in eternity past is not applied until in time and space.

    We were eternally justified according to God's eternal purpose in Christ but we were not justified in time and space until the elect in time and space believed in Jesus Christ.

    Note that Romans 8:28-31 all deal with God's ETERNAL PURPOSE ("purpose" - v. 28) and speak of GLORIFICATION as a past tense reality "according to His purpose").

    Now, are you going to argue the elect were ETERNALLY GLORIFIED in regard to APPLICATION before the world began? You will have to argue that in order to defend your position as "JUSTIFIED" is equally included by Paul in Romans 8:29-30 as is GLORIFICATION.

    No, we were not justified or glorified in eternity past EXCEPT ACCORDING TO HIS ETERNAL PURPOSE as we are both justified and glorified IN TIME and SPACE in regard to APPLICATION.

    Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 ΒΆ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Now take your choice! Either we are already fully justified and glorified before the world began or we were only justified and glorified before the world began ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE not according to the reality of our condition or real application to our person.
     
    #42 Dr. Walter, Jul 16, 2011
  3. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    According to God's Eternal Purpose the elect were never charged with their sins, Christ was. Thats why David saith

    These are they that David said Ps 32:1-2

    1Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

    2Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    The elect did not have to be born in time for their foreknown sins not to be charged unto them but unto Christ, no more so, did they have to be born sinners actually for Christ to have died for their sins.

    So the elect were never actually Charged with their sins, that's their Justification right there.

    Yes, the application of it is not until time after the elect are born sinners, but the application of the Fact only goes to prove that the Fact was real before its was known by application unto the recipient.
     
    #43 savedbymercy, Jul 16, 2011
  4. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    The word "PURPOSE" denies that it IS a fact of reality as reality does not deal with what may be PURPOSED but rather what IS present condition.



    Wrong again! If they were not actually charged with their sins there is no need to make a "PROVISION" for sin. Even ACCORDING TO GOD'S ETERNAL PURPOSE they were charged with sin or else there is no sense in PURPOSING a PROVISION for their sins.

    It is not a "fact" before they were born because they are not a "fact" until they are born. You confuse reality (fact) with Purpose (preceding reality).

    You don't know the difference between PURPOSE versus REALITY or between PURPOSE and APPLICATION or between what is PREDESTINED verus what is FACTUAL REALITY.

    The only FACT is this was "according to His purpose" before the world began but it was not a REALITY before the world began or else the meaning of "purpose" is invalidated.
     
    #44 Dr. Walter, Jul 16, 2011
  5. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    Your wrong, Their sins were legally charged to the provision [The Lamb slain from the foundation] , their surety. Christ had not actually died for them as of yet, but He was charged with them from the foundation. Thats why John writes, " Slain from the foundation"

    Heb 7:22

    22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament

    What is your understanding of a surety and when do you believe that Christ was made a surety ?
     
    #45 savedbymercy, Jul 17, 2011
  6. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    It is a fact to God before they are born. Just as Jeremiah was set apart as a Fact in God's reckoning before he was born. Jeremiah 1:5


    5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    You are attempting to bring God down to your finite level.

    God knew Jeremiah [as a Fact] intimately before He was ever formed in the belly. Thats speaks to His Union with Christ as His seed before the world began.

    And these things said of Jeremiah are not limited to him, but apply to all the foreknown of God !
     
    #46 savedbymercy, Jul 17, 2011
  7. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    There is no "legal" justification where there is none under law or condemned by law. There were none under law or condemned by law BEFORE the world began because they were non-existent. You cannot justify what the law has not yet condemned because where there is no condemnation there is no need of justification. The only kind of justification before the world began is found in the eternal counsel and there it is only God's PURPOSE yet unfulfilled.



    The text says "from" not "before" the foundation and it refers to the lamb slain either in Genesis 3:15 AFTER the fall or in Genesis 4 by Abel.

    Christ became the "surety" of the elect BY PROMISE ACCORDING TO HIS ETERNAL COUNSEL before the world began (Rom. 3:24-26) but only by PROMISE not by PROVISION. The PROVISION in time and space fulfilled the PROMISE!
     
    #47 Dr. Walter, Jul 17, 2011
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    He became Surety when He struck hands in the Everlasting Covenant. Do you deny the Everlasting Covenant took Place Heb 13:20 ? That in Fact is the Eternal Counsel of God.

    You must think the Eternal Counsel was just in the Mind of God. It took place in Eternity Past, before the world began, and it was then that Christ became Surety of His People. God determined then that Sin would not be charged legally to the Sheep but to the Shepherd. It was for this cause God was not imputing the worlds trespasses against them legally 2 Cor 5:19

    So again, God's Elect were Legally never Charged with Sin according to the stipulations of the Eternal Counsel or Eternal Covenant of God..


    That does not matter in this case. The word from is the word apo and means:

    of separation

    a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...

    b) of separation of a part from the whole

    1) where of a whole some part is taken

    c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed

    d) of a state of separation, that is of distance

    1) physical, of distance of place

    2) temporal, of distance of time

    2) of origin

    a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken

    b) of origin of a cause

    I believe its meaning in the verse of Rev 13:8 " of a state of separation of distance of time, the temporal

    The word foundation is the word:katabolΔ“ and means:


    a throwing or laying down

    a) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb

    b) of the seed of plants and animals

    2) a founding (laying down a foundation)

    So it was from the laying down of the Foundation.

    Christ the one to be slain in time, was the One who Laid the foundation, for He was the active Efficient Cause in Creation as The Mediator, and all things were Created by Him and for Him,[Col 1:16-17] for His redemptive purpose. The world was made with the sins of the elect charged to Him. It was created for the carrying out of this Eternal Purpose.

    Just as soon as Adam and Eve sinned, This Eternal Covenant began to be revealed in the coming of the seed of the woman.

    So the words from the foundation and before the foundation can be used interchangeably, depending on the subject matter.

    The scripture says that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world 1 Pet 1:20

    Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

    Its the same thing as He being slain from the foundation of the world ! This confirms that from and before are used interchangeably in this matter.
     
    #48 savedbymercy, Jul 18, 2011
  9. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    No, I do not deny the "everlasting covenant" and God's eternal purpose of redemption are one and the same.

    It is the "EVERLASTING" covenant and therefore it did not take place at SOME TIME in the past but is as "EVERLASTING" as God Himself. There is NO TIME in eternity past. There is not a TIME in Eternity past when it never existed but has existed as long as God has existed. So yes, it is the immutable purpose in the mind of the Trinune God as nothing that has a "beginning" existed in eternity past.



    Yes, God "DETERMINED" according to His eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28-31) that IN TIME and SPACE the everlasting COVENANT PROMISE would be fulfilled first in PROVISION in the Person and work of Jesus Christ and then in the APPLICATION WORK of the Holy Spirit in regard to each individual elect.


    Note the time frame of 2 Cor. 5:19. It is not eternity past but the PRESENT TENSE (present tense verbs and participles) when Christ came into the world making the provision on the cross. In other words, when Christ was in the world, not before the foundation of the world but when Christ actually provided the satisfaction on the cross. In other words, God was imputing sin to Christ ON THE CROSS and that is why we are now MINISTERS OF RECONCILIATION as we are preachers of the cross - the gospel.

    Wrong! God's elect were LEGALLY CHARGED with sin during the time of their unbelief (Jn. 3:18, 36; Rom. 3:19-20) and thus LEGALLY condemned as "sinners." They were not condemned "in Christ" in regard to God's eternal purpose. They were not condemned "in Christ" in regard to Christ's provision on Calvary. However, they were not "IN CHRIST" redemptively before they were regenerated but they were "EVEN AS OTHERS" - children of disobedience and condemned under sin:



    Rom. 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


    Your error is that you confuse PURPOSE with REALITY or PLAN with FULFILLMENT. Until the Purpose becomes reality and the plan becomes fulfillment they are not SPIRITUALLY "in Christ" but SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN SIN and they are charged with sin and therefore they are under legal condemnation and therefore they are subject to death and thus are "BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH even as others"
     
    #49 Dr. Walter, Jul 18, 2011
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    Well thats when Christ became a Surety of a better Covenant. In becoming the Surety, He engaged full responsibility of all the Sheep legally. So when they did sin in Adam, He must come into the world, be made in the likeness of sinful flesh, He was bound by Covenant agreement. Their sins were His debt , not theirs. The Father looked to Him, not to them for payment, hence no sin was laid to their Charge. They are Justified from all sin..But Christ was condemned by the Justice of God. Zech 13:

    7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    Now you need to make up your mind what you believe. Did God look for Justice from the Shepherd or the Sheep ? He did not from both...If from the Shepherd, when ? When did God determine not to punish the Sheep legally and to Punish the Shepherd ?
     
    #50 savedbymercy, Jul 18, 2011
  11. billwald

    billwald New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    2
    >Well thats when Christ became a Surety of a better Covenant.

    Then God only "wrote" Torah before he created the universe? The NT is an addendum?
     
    #51 billwald, Jul 18, 2011
  12. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Isaiah 12:1-2. 'And in that day you will say: "O LORD, I will praise You; though You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me. Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; for YAH, the LORD, is my strength and my song; He also has become my salvation."'

    In the light of Chapter 11, 'that day' is the day of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth. God becomes one's salvation when one trusts in the 'Branch' (11:1). Before that time, God is angry, but when one believes on Christ, His anger is taken away.

    Then, and only then, can we draw water with joy from the wells of salvation (cf. John 4:10; 7:38).

    Steve
     
    #52 Martin Marprelate, Aug 1, 2011
  13. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166

    God was angry at the Elect, but He took it out on Their Shepherd. Zech 13:7

    Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    Jesus Christ the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, Cvenanted before the world began to Be the Surety of thew Sheep. All what they would do to violate God's Law was laid to His Charge.
     
    #53 savedbymercy, Aug 1, 2011
  14. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,623
    Likes Received:
    2
    What LEGAL right did God have, to be angry with His elect? They could not have sinned BEFORE THE WORLD began because they did not exist before the world began UNLESS you believe they were in spiritual union with God as SINNERS before the world began??

    Your position is absurd! You attempt to manipulate God's Legal system so that the legal provision stands alone as the whole basis of justification when it does not! There is no justification apart from application as the provision for justification procures its application but it is not the application.
     
    #54 Dr. Walter, Aug 1, 2011
  15. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    dw:

    They sinned in Adam, broke His Law, His Covenant.
     
    #55 savedbymercy, Aug 1, 2011
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Who denies that God took it out on the Shepherd? No Christian. However, if God was once angry with His elect, then they cannot have been justified in eternity.

    Absolutely right! But nonetheless, the sheep are not justified until they believe.

    Steve
     
    #56 Martin Marprelate, Aug 1, 2011
  17. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2011
    Messages:
    6,058
    Likes Received:
    166
    mar

    Correct, because He was legally liable for them. That fact alone released the sheep from liability. God's Justice will not allow Him to Legally Charge the Sheep and the Shepherd for the same crimes, so you must make up your mind as to who God held Legally accountabe for the sins of the Sheep. Cant be both..

    Thats error, the Sheep never had any charges against them in the first place. All the charges were imputed to Christ even before the sheep were born. How can People whom God holds no charges against them not be Justified ? Rom 8:33

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    The Non Imputation of sin is their Justification.
     
    #57 savedbymercy, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2011
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If God imputed our sins to Christ from eternity and justified us from eternity, why was he once angry with us? Why were we 'By nature children of wrath, just as the others' (Eph 2:3)? To be sure God chose us in Christ from eternity (Eph 1:4) with the purpose that 'We should be holy and without blame before him in love.' But this does not happen until we believe. 'But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ' (Eph 2:13).


    Nope! There were charges against the sheep, but Christ has 'Wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us.....' (Col 2:14).

    There was a time when there could be charges against God's elect; when we were held fast in Satan's grip (Luke 11:21-22; Col 1:13 etc.). But when we trust in Christ, God not only forgives our sins, but actually chooses judicially to forget them (Heb 8:12 etc.) so it is as if they have never been.

    Steve
     
    #58 Martin Marprelate, Aug 5, 2011
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    God was angry at the elect? News to me?
    That contradicts John 3:16 and so many other like verses:

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

    He loves us with an everlasting love. That is the polar opposite of anger.
    The reason why God sent his Son was not to take his anger out on the Shepherd, but because of His great love wherewith he loved us. He has made us the object of His love.

    (ESV) but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

    For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (Romans 5:7)

    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. (John 10:7)

    I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. (John 10:11)

    As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10:15)
     
    #59 DHK, Aug 5, 2011
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,817
    Likes Received:
    2,106
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Have you never been angry with someone you love? If God was not angry at the sins of His people, there would be no need for the cross.
    And how do you deal with Isaiah 12:1-2? Here it is again. 'And in that day you will say: "O LORD, I will praise You; though You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away and You comfort me. Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; for YAH, the LORD, is my strength and my song; He also has become my salvation."'

    And have you now come to the conclusion that 'World' in John 3:16 actually refers to the elect? Hmmm!

    Steve
     
    #60 Martin Marprelate, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
Page 3 of 10
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...