Justification from everlasting !

Are you so blind and ignorant that you cannot see that this text along with several other texts of like kind refer to what was done ON THE CROSS not in eternity past and in regard to FINAL CONDEMNATION not in regard to INITIAL LEGAL VERDICT!

There can be no savior where there is nothing to be saved from. There can be no justification where there is none condemned. There can be no peace given where there is not war.

You simply have no spiritual ability or common sense to distinguish between eternal purpose and time or what is done in time according to eternal design.

The elect were no more justified in eternity than they were glorified in eternity - Rom. 8:28.

BE CONSISTENT AND TEACH NONE OF THE ELECT WHERE EVER BROUGHT UNDER THE CONDEMNATION OF SIN and suffered aging, sickness, and death but were ETERNALLY GLORIFIED as in the very same context of eternal justification is eternal glorification:

to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Come on! Is not verse 28 referring to "according to his purpose" his eternal counsel and were they not EQUALLY GLORIFIED as they were JUSTIFIED????

You cannot be consistent because your parrot interpretations are CORRUPTIONS OF GOD'S WORD

 

With respect, I think that is what you are doing. You appear to have come to the conclusion that 'world' (Greek kosmos) in John 3:16 means 'all the people in the world.' You are entitled to do that, but you are not entitled to claim that it is the only possible interpretation.

No, it certainly isn't. God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death. That is why He can say, 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.....' He can say that because He hasn't offered these people salvation to se what they make of it; He has actually redeemed them at the cost of His precious blood.

Amen! Here we are in perfect agreement. '......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away.' No one who sincerely trusts in Christ for salvation will ever be rejected. Why? Because they are the ones for whom Christ died, whom the Father decreed for salvation before time began and whom the Holy Spirit has made willing. They love because God first loved them. They choose because God first chose them. 'Salvation is of the LORD' (Jonah 2:9). :godisgood:

This is not my belief. You should not make assumptions. As I have indicated above, I believe that 'world' actually means 'world,' as in, Planet Earth*. It may also mean 'both Jew and Gentile' but I would never claim that it means 'the elect.'

*A consideration of Romans 8:18ff may be helpful in this regard.

Steve

 

Yes, that is my conviction. Christ died for all. It is repeated in many other Scriptures; I don't see any reason to deny it here.

He didn't die for just "the redeemed," or just "the chosen ones." He died for all, and thus the meaning of the word "world" is conclusive. There is not one person for whom Christ did not die. "For God demonstrated his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for sinners. I am no better a sinner than any other person in this world. I am so unworthy of his love. The fact that I responded to his love while others did not does not mean that he loves them any less.

Thus God so loved the world...
Not, God loved the elect.

Whoever believes on him He will grant salvation. Why? Because he died for the sins of all the world, for everyone; not just the elect. God so loved the world, not just the elect. The opportunity to believe is granted to all.

You post as if it is your belief.
Christ said he came to seek and to save the lost. He is not a member of the Green Party or of PETA, or of any environmental group. He never subscribed to National Geographic. He did not come to seek and to save the mountains, valleys, rivers, seas and plains--all a part of our "planet."
The planet is irrelevant. It will someday be destroyed with fire, as it was once destroyed with a Flood. If God sent his son do die for a planet then no one--not you or I have any hope in Christ for salvation. The planet is irrelevant.

He came to die for sinners, not the planet. The sinners compose the world that is on the planet. It is our world, the world that we live in. We are to live in the world and yet not be of the world. It is the world that needs Christ. It is the world that he died for--every world of every generation. They all need a Savior, and those are the ones who Christ died for. His grace is sufficient to cover all men's sins. But all men will not come to him because of their depraved and rebellious nature. That grace is efficacious only to those who out of their own free will choose to believe on him. They were not forced to believe. They believed because they heard the Word, and on that basis made a decision. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

 

Boy! This is hard work! Just read John 3:16 again, please. God did not give His only begotten Son to die for the world-whatever you may imagine 'world' to mean. He gave His Son for 'whosoever believes.' That is what the text says very clearly. And that is not all the people in the world qed. Once again, God has loved the world that He made in this way; He gave His only begotten Son to redeem a vast number of people out of sin and death.

Exactly so. He did not come to offer people salvation- He came to save. And not one of those for whom He died will fail to come to heaven

'This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up on the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life and I will raise him up at the last day' (John 6:39-40). Can you not see that the 'All He has given Me' and the Everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him' are the same group of people? It is so staringly obvious!

Steve

 

That is true but not in any realistic sense but only in the sense of divine purpose. At the same time we were also GLORIFIED as much as we were JUSTIFIED by that surety (Rom. 8:28-30).

You have no more basis to deny GLORIFICATION of the elect in eternity past as to claim LEGAL JUSTIFICATION in eternity past! Don't you get it? You cannot divorce one from the other and if you claim one you must claim the other. Now please explain to the readers how the elect were already GLORIFIED in eternity past and thus were never subject to decay and death and disease and age at any time???

Man up and face the facts.

 

Will do!

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

However the text clearly says:
For God so loved the world that...
He "so loved". This is a love that is incomprehensible; an infinite love. He so-loved, showing a degree beyond comparison, and yet a degree that is defined in one action that incomparable by all.
--He so loved the world that
"That" is an adverbial connective that shows the degree--the how much he loved--that he gave his only begotten son. That is how much he loved the world. God loved the world enough that he would sacrifice his only begotten son. What love is this? How incomprehensible, unfathomable, indescribable, unthinkable love is this, that the Creator of the Universe should send His Son to die for wicked criminals as you and me. What love is this!
And not only me; not only you; not only most of the members of BB here; but for the sins of all mankind of the world of every age--that whosoever of all mankind should believe in him should have eternal life.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

The rest of the Scriptures do indeed point to all the people of the world. "Not for us only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Can't get any clearer than that can you? The rest of Scripture doesn't talk of a vast number of people unless that Scripture is pulled out of context or read with a pre-conceived theology in mind. One without a Calvinistic background would never see the Scriptures that way.

He came to seek and to save the lost. You just agreed. One example given in the gospels in the rich young ruler in Mark 10. He came running to Jesus wanting to know how to have eternal life. But he went away sad after having a conversation with Jesus. Jesus said to his disciples: "How hardly shall a rich man enter into the kingdom of God." He desired his riches more than he desired Christ. Before that Christ said to the rich young man: "But Jesus, beholding him, loved him, and said; 'This one thing thou must do, Sell that thou hast, give to the poor, take up your cross, and follow me.'" And the man went away sorrowful for he had many riches.
--Jesus looked at him and loved him. Astounding words! He loved him with a love divine! And yet the man perished.

You have rose-colored glasses that you keep looking through. Did the Father not "give" him the rich young ruler? He came to Jesus. But he went away sorrowful. Why? He rejected him of his own free will, choosing his riches over Christ. The Scripture you posted cannot contradict the Scripture I posted. So one of us must be wrong. I believe your interpretation of the above scripture is wrong.
Everyone who hears and believes will have eternal life.
But the same holds true for those who do not believe; they will not have eternal life. God is a just God. Calvinists have a very difficult times reconciling John 3:36 with their system:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--Either you believe or you do not. There is no middle ground.
Christ died for all, and all must make that decision.

 

That's where your KJVism takes you DHK. "For God so loved the world" simply means in this manner or way. The word "so" is not referencing the intensity of the Father's love in John 3:16. Though His love is great that's not the point.

It was in this manner that God the Father evidenced His love --that He gave His one and only Unique Son for the purpose that all who believe in Christ Jesus will not die the second death,but have everlasting life.

That's what it means.

Christ became the wrath-bearer for not only the Jews --but Gentiles throughout the world. He was the propitiation and the propitiator of the sins of His elect on an international scale. It's not like it was in the old covenant with Israel only.

That's what it means in a nutshell.

No. Where do you get that from the text? The text does not say that the Father gave Christ the rich young ruler.

 

That was my point. But he came to Jesus anyway. All that come to Jesus have the chance to believe. Some do and some do not.

 

To realize it in His MIND is not the same as MATERIALIZING it by His power! Do you know the difference?

We did not exist in any kind of MATERIALISTIC EXISTENCE before creation but only as a REALISTIC CERTAIN IDEA that will come to pass by God's POWER in time and space.

Hence, we had no "seminal" existence before creation of physical matter and no spiritual existence as children of God before the new creation by new birth.

 

Well, it's not clear the way you see it, I'm afraid. Our Lord is quite obviously not the propitiation for the sins of every person in the world. There are some people in the world for whose sins God is not propitiated (eg. John 3:36). To say that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all the people in the world is actually the heresy of universalism.

May I suggest that you read 1John 2:2 in the Greek? You will then observe that certain words have been added to all our translations except the NKJV. Those words, IMO, make it more difficult to understand what the verse actually means.

Steve

 

'....And the one who comes to Me I will by no means turn away' (John 6:37).
If the RYR came to the Lord Jesus in all sincerity, how come He turned him away?

Steve

 

"All that the Father giveth to me..."
The Father had nothing to do with it, did he?
The rich young ruler turned away because of a rebellious heart. He loved his riches more than he loved Christ. He turned away voluntarily. No one forced him to turn away. The Father did not refuse him, or refuse to bring him. It was the rich man's choice to cling to his riches. Thus the conclusion that Jesus said it is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

Does not the Spiritual Essence of God exist actually and really outside the temporarl realm? Are you saying that his PURPOSE in DIVINE THOUGHT is equally existent as His own substance and therefore there is a parallel existent world BEFORE creation of a MATERIAL world????

If you don't understand what I am saying, let me say it this way. God really exists as a Spirit Being before creation of the material world. Are you saying that God's purposed THOUGHTS had just as REAL existence EQUAL to the existence of His Spiritual substance and thus God eternally existed in a parallel precreated world of His thoughts??????

Do your thoughts have EQUAL real existence as your material substance? You are saying that God's thoughts have EQUAL real existence as His own subtance and therefore His purposed thoughts were just as real and existent as His own divine substance. Therefore all mankind are as real and eternally existent as God since all mankind were in God's eternal purpose. Hence, we are as eternal as God.

No, you are the one forcing the "in Adam" analogy upon God to its EXTREME paraellelism not I! You are the one demanding that we were "in Christ" BEFORE we were created in Him not I. You are the one demanding that we were "in Adam" BEFORE we were created in Adam because we existed "in Adam" in the purpose of God and therefore we were as much "in Adam" before the foundation of the world in real existence as much as we were "in Christ" before the foundation of the world. You talk about forcing God into a creature mold and you talk about Mormon pre-creation human existence - you are the one not I.